No Firebird For The Future
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The future Pontiac lineup seems likely to be small and straightforward. I'm guessing three RWD sedans (small, medium and large), a RWD five-passenger coupe (GTO), and Solstice, and that's it. Maybe the Vibe will stick around, maybe not, but no more trucks or SUVs or minivans and possibly no more FWD. Together these cars will constitute the "excitement" portion of your local Pontiac-GMC-Buick dealership's offerings.
If you start thinking of those three brands as a single line of vehicles, suddenly lots of things make more sense, BTW.
If you start thinking of those three brands as a single line of vehicles, suddenly lots of things make more sense, BTW.
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From: The Golden State
It's no secret that Belair would have been cheap for GM to make. The design proposal even evolved to include Chevy's chrome spear of death. But Lutz never made a clear "It's on...", or "it was only delayed a few months..., or a "we're going in a different direction..." when talking about the Belair.
I know.....I said I wouldn't say anything else on the subject of GTO for awhile (word given by me to someone else because I was going a bit too far).
Fortunately, this conversation is about Belair.
Last edited by guionM; Jan 10, 2007 at 02:23 PM.
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From: Mack and Bewick
Are 300/Charger not bread and butter? Are 3 series and G35 not bread and butter?
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GM's isn't going to be covering the same niche with two different products any more. From the company's point of view the $15k buyer should go see his Chevy dealer, where he will have a couple of choices. Why should he expect something from his Pontiac dealer? Should he expect something from his BMW dealer or his Lexus dealer or his Aston Martin dealer -- or his Cadillac dealer?
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Has something to do with that deal with the devil they made with Buzz Hargrove and the CAW. Not sure they can ever use the Firebird name again.
They could call it the Pontiac WS6, or the Pontiac Trans Am. I wouldn't use GTO again unless they called it The Judge.
As for rebadges, the Firebirds with the Pontiac blue-block engine were always faster and better handling than the Camaros off the showroom floor.
They could call it the Pontiac WS6, or the Pontiac Trans Am. I wouldn't use GTO again unless they called it The Judge.
As for rebadges, the Firebirds with the Pontiac blue-block engine were always faster and better handling than the Camaros off the showroom floor.
Last edited by Dwarf Killer; Jan 10, 2007 at 09:30 PM.
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From: Chicagoland IL
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 16,176
From: Chicagoland IL
Not in print. Not as often. And not with any definity.
It's no secret that Belair would have been cheap for GM to make. The design proposal even evolved to include Chevy's chrome spear of death. But Lutz never made a clear "It's on...", or "it was only delayed a few months..., or a "we're going in a different direction..." when talking about the Belair.
I know.....I said I wouldn't say anything else on the subject of GTO for awhile (word given by me to someone else because I was going a bit too far).
Fortunately, this conversation is about Belair.
It's no secret that Belair would have been cheap for GM to make. The design proposal even evolved to include Chevy's chrome spear of death. But Lutz never made a clear "It's on...", or "it was only delayed a few months..., or a "we're going in a different direction..." when talking about the Belair.
I know.....I said I wouldn't say anything else on the subject of GTO for awhile (word given by me to someone else because I was going a bit too far).
Fortunately, this conversation is about Belair.
In Geneva, he spoke much more freely about the GTO than ever before or after, but also qualified it by saying "if it happens". I also think the author added his own embelishments. Here it is for your viewing pleasure, his actual quotes in bold.
The Pontiac GTO lives! It will be replaced in late 2008 by an all-new model underpinned by General Motors’ latest rear-wheel-drive Zeta platform, with a strong likelihood of it being built on the same production line as the Chevrolet Camaro in North America.
That’s the message from General Motors vice president for global product development, Bob Lutz, at this week’s Geneva motor show.
The replacement for today’s slowish-selling GTO was canceled last year when General Motors announced it was reorganizing its North American operations and was set to focus its efforts on creating a new line of sport/utility vehicles, pickups and crossovers.
But Lutz has told AutoWeek that reports of the rear-wheel-drive coupe’s death were premature and the next-generation GTO’s development program was only really placed on hold, and—after some internal reorganization to ensure profitability targets can be met—it is now back on.
“The reason we said it was canceled is because that way our people would put their pencils down,” Lutz said. “In GM if you say something is deferred, then people keep working on it. We really needed to get that message through to everybody.” GM’s 74-year-old product guru said the program into which the GTO is incorporated was ‘getting out of control’ and running up costs that would have made it unworkable.
“It was my fault that it got out of control in the first place,” he added. “It was going to be the world’s greatest car and apparently cost nothing to make. So we’ve started over now. The program is back on and it’s going full tilt.”
Lutz confirmed that the GTO was “only ever off for two months, but that break has enabled us to get a more feasible program up.” The program he points to is General Motors’ Zeta rear-wheel-drive platform, which is being developed by Holden in Australia and set to underpin the new-generation Commodore due to be launched in August.
Besides Camaro and GTO, other models set to be based on the Zeta platform are upcoming replacements for the Chevrolet Impala and Monte Carlo, and a new car called the Buick Statesman, according to Lutz.
Contrary to rumors, however, Lutz said General Motors is not planning to revive the Pontiac Firebird. “No, that’s not something we are planning. We are not going to do that car,” he said.
When pushed on whether GM was thinking about bringing back the El Camino off the Zeta platform, Lutz beamed with enthusiasm. “The kids in the company, myself included, would love to do another El Camino, but the grown-ups amongst us don’t share that way of thinking,” he said. “It would be fairly simple. We’d only have to put a Chevrolet face on the Holden Ute [a car-like pickup sold in Australia]. The building blocks are there.”
Less sophisticated than the existing rear-wheel-drive Sigma platform found beneath the Cadillac STS and other high-end GM models, the Zeta architecture is said to be considerably cheaper to produce, owing to a simplified rear-suspension arrangement and other features.
Lutz suggests the individual character of GM models would not be compromised by basing them around one platform. “We have developed different dash-to-front-axle lengths for various models,” he said. “It [the Zeta platform] is a really flexible platform.”
Along with Australia and North America, Zeta-based rear-wheel-drive models are also being developed for sale in the Middle East and China. Details remain scarce, though GM’s business case for the new GTO is rumored to be based around sales of between 15,000 and 20,000 per year in North America. After a promising start, today’s model has failed to live up to initial estimates recording 13,569 sales in 2004 and just 11,590 in 2005.
Lutz confirmed that GM’s Australian subsidiary, Holden, would play a leading role in the engineering of the GTO [where it is sold as the Monaro] and its sister car, the Camaro. “Holden is responsible for the large rear-drive architecture that these cars are based on. If it happens, Holden will do the development on the Camaro as well as the GTO,” he told AutoWeek.
Despite being developed in Australia, however, there are strong indications the next GTO will be built in North America. “Whether the GTO will be built in Australia [as the current Pontiac GTO is] will largely depend on the [U.S. vs. Australian dollar] exchange rate at the time,” said Lutz. He added, “With the current strength of the Australian dollar and the recent Free Trade Agreement between Australia and the U.S., it would be more feasible to build the GTO in North America. This raises the possibility of both the new-generation GTO and Camaro being imported to Australia in right-hand-drive guise.
Production of today’s Pontiac GTO is planned to end in September, leaving GM with two years before the new Zeta-based model arrives in North American showrooms. As with the recently unveiled Chevrolet Camaro, it is expected to carry a more retro-inspired design with cues from earlier GTO models. Today’s model started life as the Holden Monaro and was never envisaged to carry the GTO badge, leading to complaints from North American buyers that it lacks any visual connection with the original.
That’s the message from General Motors vice president for global product development, Bob Lutz, at this week’s Geneva motor show.
The replacement for today’s slowish-selling GTO was canceled last year when General Motors announced it was reorganizing its North American operations and was set to focus its efforts on creating a new line of sport/utility vehicles, pickups and crossovers.
But Lutz has told AutoWeek that reports of the rear-wheel-drive coupe’s death were premature and the next-generation GTO’s development program was only really placed on hold, and—after some internal reorganization to ensure profitability targets can be met—it is now back on.
“The reason we said it was canceled is because that way our people would put their pencils down,” Lutz said. “In GM if you say something is deferred, then people keep working on it. We really needed to get that message through to everybody.” GM’s 74-year-old product guru said the program into which the GTO is incorporated was ‘getting out of control’ and running up costs that would have made it unworkable.
“It was my fault that it got out of control in the first place,” he added. “It was going to be the world’s greatest car and apparently cost nothing to make. So we’ve started over now. The program is back on and it’s going full tilt.”
Lutz confirmed that the GTO was “only ever off for two months, but that break has enabled us to get a more feasible program up.” The program he points to is General Motors’ Zeta rear-wheel-drive platform, which is being developed by Holden in Australia and set to underpin the new-generation Commodore due to be launched in August.
Besides Camaro and GTO, other models set to be based on the Zeta platform are upcoming replacements for the Chevrolet Impala and Monte Carlo, and a new car called the Buick Statesman, according to Lutz.
Contrary to rumors, however, Lutz said General Motors is not planning to revive the Pontiac Firebird. “No, that’s not something we are planning. We are not going to do that car,” he said.
When pushed on whether GM was thinking about bringing back the El Camino off the Zeta platform, Lutz beamed with enthusiasm. “The kids in the company, myself included, would love to do another El Camino, but the grown-ups amongst us don’t share that way of thinking,” he said. “It would be fairly simple. We’d only have to put a Chevrolet face on the Holden Ute [a car-like pickup sold in Australia]. The building blocks are there.”
Less sophisticated than the existing rear-wheel-drive Sigma platform found beneath the Cadillac STS and other high-end GM models, the Zeta architecture is said to be considerably cheaper to produce, owing to a simplified rear-suspension arrangement and other features.
Lutz suggests the individual character of GM models would not be compromised by basing them around one platform. “We have developed different dash-to-front-axle lengths for various models,” he said. “It [the Zeta platform] is a really flexible platform.”
Along with Australia and North America, Zeta-based rear-wheel-drive models are also being developed for sale in the Middle East and China. Details remain scarce, though GM’s business case for the new GTO is rumored to be based around sales of between 15,000 and 20,000 per year in North America. After a promising start, today’s model has failed to live up to initial estimates recording 13,569 sales in 2004 and just 11,590 in 2005.
Lutz confirmed that GM’s Australian subsidiary, Holden, would play a leading role in the engineering of the GTO [where it is sold as the Monaro] and its sister car, the Camaro. “Holden is responsible for the large rear-drive architecture that these cars are based on. If it happens, Holden will do the development on the Camaro as well as the GTO,” he told AutoWeek.
Despite being developed in Australia, however, there are strong indications the next GTO will be built in North America. “Whether the GTO will be built in Australia [as the current Pontiac GTO is] will largely depend on the [U.S. vs. Australian dollar] exchange rate at the time,” said Lutz. He added, “With the current strength of the Australian dollar and the recent Free Trade Agreement between Australia and the U.S., it would be more feasible to build the GTO in North America. This raises the possibility of both the new-generation GTO and Camaro being imported to Australia in right-hand-drive guise.
Production of today’s Pontiac GTO is planned to end in September, leaving GM with two years before the new Zeta-based model arrives in North American showrooms. As with the recently unveiled Chevrolet Camaro, it is expected to carry a more retro-inspired design with cues from earlier GTO models. Today’s model started life as the Holden Monaro and was never envisaged to carry the GTO badge, leading to complaints from North American buyers that it lacks any visual connection with the original.
Last edited by Z284ever; Jan 10, 2007 at 11:55 PM.
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I always took the "if it happens" to be referring to the Camaro, not the GTO, and/or Bob remembering to steer himself back to the party line. Remember that the Camaro was (officially speaking) not approved for production at that point, and GM PR seemed to want to emphasize the question mark whenever they could, in order to keep the public (that's us) riled up and paying attention.
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From: Chicagoland IL
I always took the "if it happens" to be referring to the Camaro, not the GTO, and/or Bob remembering to steer himself back to the party line. Remember that the Camaro was (officially speaking) not approved for production at that point, and GM PR seemed to want to emphasize the question mark whenever they could, in order to keep the public (that's us) riled up and paying attention.
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Yeah, I'd be interested in hearing Lutz's comments unedited and in context. In part of that story, it's obvious that Lutz is referring to the cancelled Zeta program, and the author keeps embellishing his quotes with GTO comments, perhaps giving the reader the impression that the comments are more focused on the the GTO than they actually are.
I'm not worried.
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Posts: 16,176
From: Chicagoland IL
Sure, that's more than possible. But again, maybe not. He certainly never came out and said anything to the effect that "GTO is a go", eventhough the author went out of his way to give that impression.
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More like just about throughout the 1970s. The Firebird 400 and Super Duty 455 Trans Am were faster than any Camaro off the showroom floor for their respective years. In fact, the stock 400 Ram Air was faster than the 396, and only the LT1 Camaro and 427 cars could beat it - and how long did they sell those? Firebird was and is the more extreme of the two cars. Camaro was cheaper, and it was a Chevy, so it sold more.