99SilverSS

Not true. That was something Mr. Lutz said and it was taken out of context. Red Planet or Mr. Fbodfather to you came out and assured everyone that "premium" could mean a few hundred dollars.
https://www.camaroz28.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=591709

You need to get past the power for dollars as it compares to the Mustang. 400hp isn't that much in 2009. (Well in the Mustang GT camp it is ) But lets not forget that 10yrs ago the '98 LS1 F-bodies even at their rated 305/320hp (345hp in the C5) had 80hp on the Mustang GT and they were not far off in price. (Z28-GT) So why would it be so shocking to see a 400hp LS3 Camaro sold for a comparable price to a 300hp Mustang GT or 315HP Bullitt. That's only 75 rated HP over the 2002 SS/WS6 and the Camaro will have skipped the LS2 in the process. In that time span the base Vette jumped from the C5 LS1 by 50HP to the LS2 C6 and another 30-36HP to the LS3 this year.

-Although I am glad to see that your getting the point that the LS3 and L76 don't have an inherent cost difference to each engine.


Well this is open to debate. The F-body technically never squared off against the only production Cobra that could have beaten it in 2003. (Not withstanding the 657 total '93,'95 and 2000 Cobra Rs) Not much of a consolation prize for loosing the whole car line. Also nothing should be taken away from the 2003-04 Cobra it's a real performer. But it took Ford/SVT 10 years to catch up in factory trim and that was only after a dedicated Ford, SVT directed program, terminator, had to be done just to finally get the Mustang faithful something to cheer about and some good press.

So you say let the L76 Camaro take on the Mustang GT and then have the LS3 take on the Mach 1 and then have an upgraded LS3 take on the SRT8.

I say let the LS3 Camaro take on all of them. Bring the big gun to the fight so there won't be any excuses. It's easier and cheaper. Not to mention the Mustang is a moving target. Mr. Randle and Mr. Thai-Tang are not just sitting in Dearborn making snowmen on Rotunda Dr. The next Mustang comes out only 2 years after this Camaro launches. In the car business you must plan for the competiton and that means have your chips in line for their next move. I hope you didn't think Ford was going to hand over the Pony car market w/o a fight....

Omega94

obviously...

361 hp takes the Mustangs 300 hp now, but with a new Mustang coming out soon, with a new platform and a new set of engines...that may not be the case. I'm aware that the Camaro will cost more..that's why I specified a Mustant LIKE price.

Surely it must be obvious that even the same engine, in name...can be different in power and torque figures. We've been told that the hp ratings in the L76 are low (don't ask me where the threads are)...not that they are underrated, per se, but that the engine is an extremely capable engine. So even if you're thoughts of an L76 in the 'base' V8 are correct, I would still say we'll see more than 361 hp...it would still be a L76

...if we've been told once, we've been told a million times. The Camaro will be similarly priced to a Mustang. The 'base' V8 for the Mustang doesn't start in the 30s...it starts in the mid to upper 20s. So even with features like IRS...I still say we'll see the base V8 in the mid - upper 20s...still priced above the mustang...but not where you see it to be.

Eric77TA

Yes, I do actuallly. People may not love the styling. They may hate the interior, but I think the Camaro will undoubtedly haul ***

Not you and I, sadly, but the "12 disciples who are 15" - including several members of this site, are going to another Camaro focus group in May. I'd assume that GM will in fact see what they think about the engine options (and probably already did at the last summit)

Who else has said what they were gonna do a year in advance? We just got full confirmation of Challenger powertrains and it's much closer to hitting the streets. We'll know Camaro lineup this fall.

Holy cow, when did the Camaro turn FWD! Now THIS upsets me. How will we handle torque steer with 400 front wheel horsepower? Seriously, though. I don't think GM will let Camaro get waxed by the GT. It should make for some solid competition. Above you said that you wanted GM to tell consumers what they want to do. Should they announce a 420 horsepower V8 now so Ford can make sure to have 455 in the GT by the time Camaro hits the streets?

http://www.fquick.com/videos/Pontiac_G8_Track_Run/5298

If a brand new, unbroken in G8 GT with 360 horses can run a 13.12 at 106 MPH, I don't think we have to worry about a 400 horse Camaro delivering.

TrickStang37

10 years? Up to '97 stock for stock the Cobra's ran atleast even with the LT1's. 98-02 the mustang was behind, but in 99 and 01 they weren't far behind.

TrickStang37

that car was tuned (modded). They do seem trap mid 104's though, right where they should be at with that power and aggressive gearing set up they have.

TrickStang37

that's defenitaly NOT where the camaro wants to be.

Eric77TA

I believe he was speaking from a completely performance standpoint. The point I was trying to make is that there will be no matter of opinion on the car's performance.

I wasn't aware that G8 was tuned, but nonetheless I think it dispels anyone having to worry about a 14 second V8 Camaro.

jg95z28

I love it when people make erroneous statements about the Camaro's history as justification for what they think this new Camaro should be. (I'm not quoting anyone, there are too many of you.)

Keep this in mind gang...

FACT: The 350cid V8 was developed for the Camaro SS. Camaro had it even before Corvette. (Although the 327cid V8 in the Vette the same year was rated with more hp from the factory.)

FACT: The Z28 was developed as a limited number racing package so Camaro could compete in SCCA Sedan Class racing (AKA Trans Am). Originally it was slated to have a 283cid (283hp) V8 until Vince Piggins suggested using a 283 crank in a 327 block to get closer to the SCCA allowable 305 cid maximum. (The rest is history.)

So what should the V8 performance Camaro be called? And what should the limited number ultra V8 performance/racing package Camaro be called?

Side bar: The reason for the premium to get the LS3 in the G8 is because the LS3 wasn't available in the Holden version. Now that Holden is planning to use the LS3, it could reduce that premium. Incidentally, the more vehicles GM puts the LS3 in, means they'll have to build more LS3s which in turn will reduce production costs per unit. (Question, as the G8 is assembled in Australia, is the LS3 used built in AU or is built in NA and shipped down under?)

Ron78Z&01SS

I think you may have. You can search if you like, but I think it's been believed for a while now that the Z28 will be above the SS.

guionM

By no means is it an inferior engine. If you get down to basics, the L76 is basically a Vortec 6000 out of a Suburban tuned up about 10 ft/lbs of torque, and programed to meet Euro III emissions.

Bet you didn't know this fact:
Even Holden doesn't use the L76 anymore on their own cars for Australia. They use the L98.

Or...if you want to oversimplify, the Pontiac G8 GT w/ the L76 uses left over engines from the old VZ Holden Commodores.... and the LS2 in the last GTOs were leftovers as well since Holden was using more powerful and up to date L76s at the time.

The L98 on the other hand is barely an updated L76. Some small mods to improve simplicity and Euro III emissions compliance.


The LS3 on the other hand is made especially for RWD performance cars, which is the ONLY application for V8s in current and future GM cars here in North America (unlike Chrysler & Ford , which uses their V8s in regular sedans). Therefore, the LS3 has a more aggressive cam and corresponding valvetrain.

L76, L98, and LS3 all use the same heads.

L76 & L98s are more truck/family car engines.

LS3 is the performance engine.


Camaro is getting a version of the LS3. Almost certainly with an updated version of the L76-L98 DOD, and I imagine with a few lower cost subsitutions (solid instead of hollow stem valves?).

The L76 and L98 are perfectly good engines. However, they won't be in the next Camaro. Regardless as to how often you read it on the internet rumor mill.

TrickStang37

Nice comfirmation of your position in GM

If "LS3" they put in the camaro doesnt have the valve train of the "LS3", it will take away an important part of it even being an "LS3". By the way you've written it out, GM is going to make another L92 variant. Maybe use the LS3 block with the L92 heads (and most likely cam) from the L76. The L92 heads without the hollow stem valves are limited to 6000 rpm because of the weight of the valves (according to the internet) in a production vehicle. The LS3 cam will not work with that combination if it will be limited to < 6000 rpm. And with the addition (modification) of DoD, it really isnt an LS3 anymore, is it?

guionM

Nothing's final till the final tunings done, but that V6 makes pretty impressive numbers in a Cadillac.

You can speculate till you're blue in the face, but if you're expecting an L76 that's no longer being sold in the cars Holden makes for their home market I have a bridge to sell you.

If you think there isn't going to be a much higher horsepower "super" Camaro some time after Camaro's introduction, then you'd probally buy that bridge.


Ain't gonna happen.

If you are employed by GM and working on powertrains, or getting information directly from them or people close to the project, you aren't going to jepordize your job or you contacts by revealing them. Also, you aren't going to find links proclaiming what any car nearly a year away from sale is going to put out powerwise. Especially in a highly competitive and relatively small segment as sports coupes.

You are free to call BS on anything you want. However, be prepared in this case to eat a bit of crow.

I never understood these types of posts. Very broad negative generalizations that have nothing to back it up, isn't realistic, or just plain silly.

* What car company polls people on engines they have already chosen?

* What "other" car companies actually tell the consumer what they are going to do??

* What facts or credible evidence exists to create the scenario of a 400 horse Camaro getting "waxed" by "that" GT?

Then even after saying that said car company doesn't poll consumers, or let the public know what they are doing, the post is wrapped up with "don't SING it, BRING it", completely opposite of what's just been written.

Just confused by these types of posts, that's all.

Honestly, I don't think you read a single word I wrote.

1. I said nothing about GM taking the LS3 drivetrain out of a Camaro LS3.

2. LS3, L76, and L98s use the same heads. It's right there in my post. However, I feel you missed that.

3. The LS3 block is virturally identical to the L76 & L98 blocks (which I didn't mention)

Camaro will be much heavier than the Corvette. Therfore, DOD is a given, at least by the 2nd year. The engine will be under greater strain than it would in a Corvette due to the weight difference, so it's likely that there will be some changes. I speculated solid valves instead of the hollow ones in the Corvette.

The LS3 in the Camaro will be very close to identical to the LS3 in the upcoming GXP which will be out a few months before Camaro is.

jg95z28

Guy, they have no idea who they're messing with!




P.S. Nice post BTW.

TrickStang37

honestly, i dont think you read a word from my post.

I KNOW the LS3, L76 and L98 use the same head castings, but the heads are still different on the LS3 (valvetrain).

i never said they would take the LS3 drivetrain away, but if they take away the valvetrain, take away the cam, add DoD, then its not really an LS3 anymore.

Mjolnir

Good deal, and thanks for the reply specifically to me.