It certainly seems that way.


I know that when I had my GT, I didn't have money in excess to throw around at my car (still don't.) If I wanted it to keep up with an LS1 F-Body, I would have needed at least a blower, and more than likely some bolt ons, especially from a roll. Blower kits aren't cheap, even when the come intercoolerless, and throwing a warranty out the window on a daily driven car is not something I really had any intention of doing. The new Camaro should not have to make its buyers resort to buying expensive aftermarket componentry to make the car be where they wanted it to be in the first place; for some people these cars aren't just weekend toys. The aftermarket should exist for people who want to take their cars even further than what the car was from the factory, not correct the factory's mistakes.

 

I've heard this argument before..."Oh, the Mustang's rear will rotate very easily which makes it real fun". I will never understand why people say this. If you like a car that can't corner as well then there isnt much I can say. You can get a Camaro sideways too. If you think it's too hard you can go into an empty parking lot or something and practice it until your hearts content. All I know is when we go through twisty back roads my Mustang buddies get a good view of my tail lights...For a short amount of time at least until I loose them. Also, if your only into going in a straightline Camaros seem to hook far better.

To guys that are around my age that may very well be all that matters. Being that I'm almost 18, I grew up seeing tons of 3rd and 4th gen F-bodies. I can understand that many older guys may not see Camaros and Firebirds as vehicles that should have been made so performance oriented, but for someone who was born in the late 80's that was how they were when I came on to the scene so-to-speak. At this point it would be very hard for me personally to accept the new Camaro if it became anything else. Really, my dream would be a 5th gen that could hand an STI/EVO it's a$$ on a road course/ autox. I envision a car that would be much like the 3rd/4th gen cars but put on a weight/size reduction program. If it were the size of an sn-95, (but wider and lower ), and weighed < 2,300lbs and had a Z/28 package with a real serious, no-hold-barred suspension, wheel and tire package, and a 1LE option on top of that to take it even further... I would be in love. I have no fear that the car will get good motor options

So, GM here's my wish list:
*Smaller size
*< 2,300 lbs
*Z/28 package that is a serious performance option
*Z/28 1LE package that's an even more serious performance option
*LS2 as min performance power plant
*6 speed manual
*Solid rear
*Suspension design that is at least as advanced as the 4th gen
*Mean, aggressive looks, no retro. I want a modern design, something fresh, (For inspiration look at the new Z06, the 3rd gen Camaros, LT1 4th gen, LS1 TA WS6 and the Viper GTS...And then improve upon those ideas )
*Seats that hold you in place, ( I dont want leather seats, I want some nice recaro style ones)
*Stiffer structure, no squeaks and rattles and better build quality
*Easier to work on than 4th gens
*< $30,000 for Z/28 1LE

So, do all of this sound crazy? To most people it probably does but it's ok to dream, right?

 

Message to GM: I want a new Camaro that has the proportions of a 69!

(sorry, just had to follow up on your sig above )

 

As an outsider looking in, wasn't the the reason for Camaro's decline attributable to its more low-slung body shape than anything else? The F-body's were almost Corvette like in appearance whereas Mustang retained the more upright stance that can be traced back to the original... I've heard this character alone is the main reason Mustang continues to be so popular with pony car fans... not to mention insurance being cheaper for Mustang than Camaro/Firebird.

How else could you explain how a supposedly superior car (in most performance facets) could fail dismally in sales compared to it's more underwhelming rival... apart from GM's neglect to continue to inject more life into its F-body?

Generally speaking, low slung performance vehicles are considered a niche product with relatively low volumes. The Mustang was nearly always true to its roots, which shared its platform with its 4-door siblings. Does this reason alone make the Mustang a more liveable proposition or am I totally off-beam?

 

Nugging me off my point, huh?

My exact words were:
" ...It became an out of the box car that did everything so well, and left so little to change or personalize for the people who would buy this type of car. In short, the Camaro simply lost it's fun factor....

...But buyers of this type of car, like me, want to do things to it.... on a budget...

(and finally)... I thing GM understands the need for owner involvement in the creation of their cars, judging by GM's actions with the aftermarket regarding the HHR & Cobalt, and their vivid attention to how the current Mustang is winning converts from even the Import Tuner community...."

I also pointed out how many people were under the illusion that the Camaro drank mor gas than the Mustang. I'd wager that you have heard this as well. That's where Camaro's performance worked against it.... a car with that much performance must drink mor gas, right?.... or so the thinking goes.




Again, you are nudging my point beyond what I said.

1. I said Mustang is winning over the Import Tuner crowd. You did a pretty good mangling of what I said. Impressive, ingenious, but still wrong.

You asked me what tuners Mustang had out the box, and I told you.

2. I said there was the Ford Performance Catalogue as well as an army of aftermarket tuners. You completely glossed over this, and went straight for the $40K Roush "If I want "real" Mustang performance". The new Mustang GT out the box accelerates as hard as an LS1 till over 60 mph. A computer mod sends this even quicker over a longer distance.



Again, you are so rabid to prove a point and disarm my observation about the difference between Camaro and Mustang that you either twisted or failed to read what I posted. Somehow I can say "Mustang's winning over Import Tuner fans", and you read it as "Mustang's being done by Import Shops".

Nice Try there bud.

[quote]That is something I would love to see. And what are your experiences as the Mustang being taken very seriously as a performance car? Because your magazine features them occasionally? The new Mustang has already started to become the car that a body shop will modify to show how stylish the shop can be, and then they all just seem to throw on a blower as an afterthought and are done with it. Have you ever talked to any of the younger guys that go to the street races constantly?Hardly. There is a limited market for a 2 passenger convertible the size of a queen-sized bed. Even the Corvette is trouncing the Miata in sales! But to even suggest that the Miata is a performance car while we're talking about Mustangs is pretty lame. Common! You can do better than that there Russ!

As for mainstreem mags:

*I've yet to see an Evo/STi on the cover of Popular Hot Rodding or Rod Magazine.
*In the covers of the latest Road & Track's "Speed" magazine, they have a Mustang GT in a comparison test of "Drifting".
*Walk into a 7/11 and you'll see more Mustangs on the cover of magazines than any other single model.

Not intending this as a slam or anything, but since you brought up that you had a Mustang for 2 years, I feel compelled to respond that I had a '85 Mustang special service from 1986 to 1997 (sold at 225,000 miles...155K mi mine), had a '92 SS Mustang during that time, bought another in 97, sold it and bought a '93 in '98, and had 2 more I bought ran and sold along with a GT hatchback till 2000 when I had to move to San Diego, and sold all my cars (including a Thunderbird SC daily driver) & just kept my '97 Camaro Z28. So that puts me at 14 years of continuous Mustang ownership, that also saw me owning a used '93 Z28 (sold at 140,000 miles... 50K mine) followed up by a '97 which I sold just over a month ago (165,000 miles...135K miles mine).

I can run down all the flaws and good of both. Camaro's strength is it's engine and roadholding, Mustang's is it's overall performance and fun factor. With the exception of Ford's dark days of the late 90s, Mustangs tend to be more machinically durable than Camaros, while Camaros are by far more structurally solid than Mustangs.

 

100% correct... at least till I was nudged off base.

The challenge to me was: "A superiorly performing car would never be outsold by an inferior one".

Mustang did it.

All these other stuff is simply diversions and chest thumping.

 

Again Guy, where is your proof for this statement? I always respect your views and opinions, and a lot of things you say I tend to take as fact more often than not, but the way some people wax poetic about the new Mustang you'd think it's the most significant vehicle since the Model T. I have seen no evidence that people are jumping out of their hopped-up Civics and into Mustangs. Show me.

 

C'mon, you should know better than anyone that PHR is an old-school muscle car magazine. Import features are few and far between.

There have also been stories of Pontiac's GTO entry into drifting. Is the GTO also lusted after by sport compact guys?

That's cool. It's a successful, brand new model. When Nissan brought out the 350Z it garnered a lot of attention. Same with the C6. And when the current STI and Evos were introduced....

 

yes the camaro died because it was such a performer it didnt require tinkering.

I guess ill take my healthy dog out back and shoot him in the head, so i can go get a new one that i have to nurse back to health.

Um...Yea.

I can only tell you how much i missed my mustangs sloppy handling after i purchased my 94 Z, i missed it so much that ive never looked back again

 

Come out to California, and I'd be glad to.

 

The mustangs design ques (in connection with exteriors of the past) arn't what sell the mustang to the 20 somethings, which is what i see most driving these cars are.

I asked myself when i had my 96' cobra before i traded it for my 94 Z28, "lets give some reasons why we shouldnt do this" and honestly i remember the list as clear as day, and here it is.

-Its pretty
-It sounds nice
-My woman loves it
-For crying out loud its a mustang cobra!

Now mind you, i didnt even know why i cared it was a mustang. Thus my point, in the american pony car arena a mustang is just that, a mustang. The mustang since its incarnation has been the original pony car, it is in fact the mustang. I cant even try to explain why the name meant a damn thing to me, but just like others i grew up with the ideal that the mustang was an awesome sports car which was fast!

As i laid in the pony car wars, i ran into a car i never knew much about but at the same time knew all to well from street events. I took a chance on a car most i knew spoke down about (which i feel is oftenly the case because again the mustang in american culture has been built up to something it really is not) and i wish i would have done so sooner, many mustang lovers (mostly young) would have the same experiance if they just could get past the "But i have a Mustang" syndrom i once suffered.

When i first got my Z' i took my Mustang buddy out in it (he had a 1998 mustang GT auto) his facial expression was that of suprise he had always been LEAD to beleive the mustang was a fast pony-car, but in the face of his enemy in the passanger seat he slowly muttered "I must have one man... I cant beleive its THIS large of a difference" he now owns a 2001 Camaro SS.

My point is, the mustang sells SIMPLY because it is in fact, a mustang. (read that however you may, but some will understand what im trying to say i dont have the words)

Because the mustang sells on name plate alone, hell look at the old cobra II's they would have made better kindling for the fireplace, but hell it was a mustang and some people STILL bought it.

again i think it sells on name plate alone, not to count (yes here i go again) nagging teenagers who push mom and pops to the lots for ***|wow|wanna be cool factor, and the new stylings have only fueled this more.

Hopefully the general will answer back, and this time with a loud booming voice.

 

I don't really understand the point of bringing this up again. I read what you posted the first time fine. Although I will comment, despite what the EPA numbers suggest, my Camaro does typically indulge itself on gas much more than the Mustang did, at least with any kind of spirited driving.

1. I still want some sort of validation that the new Mustang has won over any kind of performance import enthusiast at all, be they a shop or otherwise. I know too many import enthusiasts to count personally, and although things may be different in other areas, over in my neck of the woods the import crowds barely even picked up on the new Mustang at all. I also don't recall asking what tuners the Mustang had out of the box, because I am already well aware of who does what for the Mustang.

2. I don't recall glossing over anything. You mentioned Saleen and Roush, and I didn't really know where you were going with it while mentioning what effect the new Mustang was having on import tuners, so I interpreted it as best as I could. I personally wouldn't have brought up two American tuners in an arguement to prove what an impact the Mustang has had on the import community. By the way, that must be one hell of a computer tune, I didn't know Ford couldn't tune their new Mustangs for crap. The tunes for the sn95s never yielded power you could feel through a stock or almost stock engine.


Again, I ask. Where do you draw a basis for your conclusion that Mustangs have been winning over import fans at all? When was the last time you talked to a 16 year old high school import fan? When was the last time they said the new Mustang was a car they would want over something like a WRX or SRT-4? Rarely have I ever engaged in a conversation with a person of that age where the conversation has gone anything to that degree.

[quote]That is something I would love to see. And what are your experiences as the Mustang being taken very seriously as a performance car? Because your magazine features them occasionally? The new Mustang has already started to become the car that a body shop will modify to show how stylish the shop can be, and then they all just seem to throw on a blower as an afterthought and are done with it. Have you ever talked to any of the younger guys that go to the street races constantly?

My point had nothing to do with sales numbers. It had everything to do with you labeling the Mustang as the hottest performance car out there, and my contrary opinion to your statement. My remark about Miatas was supposed to imply that the Miata has always been a fun little cheap car, but fun does not equate to performance. Would a Miata run with a Mustang GT on any performance level? Probably not. But it still doesn't make the new Mustang anywhere near the hottest performance car out there. You can pick up a new Evo for around the same price as a GT, and the Evo will butcher it.

*Gee, I wonder why there aren't any Evos/STIs on the covers fo Popular Hot Rod or Rod Magazine. I would like to know how many imports at all have been on the cover of either of those magazines, because I would be the number would bet pretty damn small.
*When does drifting have anything to do with performance? Besides, that was not really a good example anyway, considering that the top dogs in drifting are still japanese cars.
*Being on the covers of many car magazines does not a performance car make. The Eclipse has been on the cover of tons of magazines, and yet except for the DSM version, they would not exactly be what one considers a performance car. Besides, I can walk into a Barnes and Noble, and see tons of magazines with Mustangs on the cover, but they tend to be Mustang magazines, or some derivitave of a Ford enthusiast magazine, so I would expect that they would have a Mustang on the cover.

I brought up the Mustang I owned as a counterpoint to you calling me a narrow minded Camaro enthusiast. I might own a red 99 Cobra at the moment, if the dealership that I found it at wasn't being so crappy about the sale.

I haven't owned as many Camaros or Mustangs as you, so I can't comment on as large of a window of vehicle production time as you can, but both cars mechanically and structurally from the factory suck, in my experiences. If its not Ford's crappy trannies, its GM's crappy rearends. If its not Ford's crappy starters and lust for eating flywheel teeths, its GM's crappy piston slap problems. I don't know about how well the new Mustang is mechanically, but it would do GM well to come a long a well mechanically with the 5th gen. Its a good thing the aftermarket exists to help fix these problems, but this isn't exactly what a performance aftermarket should be about, fixing factory problems.


Well, this is getting pretty sidetracked. The original point I was trying to convey in my first counterpost was that GM need not hold back the reigns on the Camaro's performance, as that in the end will not be what sells the cars. That was never what was wrong with the Camaro, so why bother trying to fix something that is not broken.

 

Lusted? No. Respected? Yes. Thanks to Rhy and Pontiac Motorsports.

PHR also has a tilt towards Camaros. Johnny is a Camaro fanatic extrordinaire. Yet no shortage of Mustangs.


Seems I stirred up a hornets nest this morning.

 

Respect by whom? Certainly not most import guys. Alot of them see this as unnecessary factory involvement, and loathe the car as a harbinger to the doom of the purity of their sport.

 

Well, seeing that many of us live nowhere near California (in this case on the opposite coastline), this is not going to be a satisfactory form of proof. I am sure you see plenty of new Mustangs down there, but who is to say the drivers of those Mustangs were import enthusiasts in the first place. There are still more than a few young domestic enthusiasts out there, despite what the Fast and the Furious would have you believe.