Well put.

 

I know what you're saying but I give the buyer more credit. I think the buyer is far too intelligent and fastidious today than to just buy on nameplate alone. Although still strong, I don't think tradition today is as strong as it used to be. If a buyer is looking for a Stang, surely he/she would consider what else is out there in the market that comes close to filling the needs?

Anyway, I just want to give credit to the guys here who have actually owned both Mustang and Camaro. It's always great to read non-partisan material from people who GM would logically target. That's why I love this forum, you guys tell it like it is. And btw, thanks also for the entertainment... it never gets dull or boring here!

 

Only problem with that comment is the 4th gen F-bodies aftermarket is and has been extremely huge !!!!!!!!!!!!! You could build a 4th gen Camaro or Firebird with the only the body itself being left as the sole original piece and in the process have several different suppliers to choose from for any given part . So lets leave the issue with the car itself

Agreed on the 5th gen

 

OK...only read thru the first page.

Good points, but I don't think it's nearly that simple.

A couple of thoughts:

The number one reason people buy a car in this segment is "Head turning style"....which, I think the Fcars had.....the problem is that they had the same essential look for over 10 years...........that's a problem!

No question that the seating position is a turnoff to those who aren't into a low-slung car. There's no question that the 4th gen Camaro was designed to own the track. And I think it proved that point to this very day. That also means it will limit the number of people who desire such a car.

(Insert question here: let's see a show of hands who want the Camaro to appeal to a wider audience even if it means it compromises the handling?)

While there's no question that the Mustang has more performance mods available to it, I'm no so sure the 4th gen has none........far from it. I'm always amused that we could build 6 black SSs.......and one year from the date of manufacturer, the chances are they've been personalized to the person's liking. Moreover, I travel and meet with enthusiasts constantly...and I can tell you that it's rare that I see a 4th gen without mods.

I think there was a lot of damage done to the car internally.....but Mr. Zarella did it in for good. It's not easy to work on the platform when the ad budget has been taken away.......and the little amount of money for yearly updates is a small fraction of what it should be. That said, I think some will tell you that we did quite a job considering very little funds.....

The Mustang, on the other hand, benefitted from two-three year updates in terms of sheetmetal/interiors/wheels/etc. (trust me, if the Fcar team had that kind of money...........)

Now.....I'm not trying to make excuses.....but only to point out some facts.

By the way....I don't agree with the comment about driving position. The Fcar driving position in terms of visual scanning and placement of gearshift, etc. is, in my opinion...and the opinions of many experts, far superior to that of the Mustang. The problem is that it DOES sit quite a bit lower.......and that's intimidating to many.

Gotta run now..........meeting friends for dinner.....but I'll read the entire thread later and put in a few more cents........

 

One other thing.........and I've mentioned this before.........GM (fortunately or unfortunately, depending on the perspective you have) offered the customer a much wider choice of coupes. Alison-Fisher surveys show that in many many cases, the Mustang owner's second choice was not Camaro......rather, it was the Grand Am or the Z24 Cavalier. Now, there are many reasons for that...one of them is that Ford Motor Company only gave you four choices in 2001/2002......Mustang, ZX2, Cougar, or Focus

Chevy alone had four entries...........plus the other GM divisions..and as a result, GM outsold Ford by well over 2 to 1 in the 2-door markets..........now.......in this day and age, that isn't a good thing when you consider the development and marketing costs........it was a good thing years ago........not today.

There is overlap between Mustang and Camaro....but the Mustang without question, appeals to a wider audience -- and I think it's safe to say that the Mustang appeals (also) to people who don't care anything about performance...they want the style.

The real question is: where do we go from here?

As a Camaro enthusiast, I want the new Camaro to own the track.....but I also realize that it has to overcome some of the shortcomings that turned people off.......MOREOVER......the lifecycle MUST be managed and funds have to be available to do that......and the lifecycle can't last for 10 years ...or even 5 years.....without appearance changes.

I also believe the Camaro must have more 'do it yourself' mods.....and the best kind of mods are the ones you can buy that are already validated and won't invalidate the warranty, yet are affordable to the younger buyer.

I think we all have ideas of how the car needs to be.......but I can tell you this......there's a lot at stake. The days of a manufacturer 'getting it wrong' are long gone.

One last thought.......I don't believe the 4th gen cars, overall, have a lot to apologize for.

 

Good points RP .

I strongly agree with this statement. This would definitely get a lot of attention .

David

 

The shifter position on the F-body was indeed far better than the Mustang. Other than that, I much prefer the seating position, visibility (sorry - it was much better with the Mustang), and general day-to-day ease of use of the SN95 Mustang over the 4th Gen F-body.

As an FYI....I owned a 98 Cobra, 99 T/A, and 99 Cobra (in that order) within the span of a bit over a year, so I at least have some experience to base my conclusions on.

 

I have yet to talk to someone that disliked the looks of the '98 + T/A and WS6 and Firehawk. I'm 22 years old and they are my favorite cars evaaaar. The 5th gen would have to be really bad-@ss to make me consider selling my car for a new one. And have to be really sweet to make me want to buy one for a cheaper C5 Z06.

TONY

 

Not that everyone agrees, but hey, if it were up to me, it'd be a hatchback about the same size and weight as an SN95 Mustang, but with decent ergonomics(!), better packaging, an IRS, and of course, the big ol' honkin' V8 and 6-speed manual. Maybe throw in a targa top. I'd also throw on some fender flares (a highly underutilized styling element).

BTW, while I like the looks of the current mustang, I still think it is getting dangerously close to the 1971 model...just too darn big for its time...but maybe it's just me since they are still selling the snot out of them...

 

The only concession I would accept right up front is to design the car in a way that it gets enough sales to sustain itself and be sucessful. I know it sounds like a real brainstorm, but after the 4th gen....

If GM needs it to sell 75,000 to stick around, and you have the option of making it a newer version of the 4th gen and sell 40k, or you can make it more Mustang like and sell 80k, then I think you make it more Mustang like. And if that means you lose some handling....then thats the price you pay. Now I don't really have any concerns about the GM team being able to pull off such a car, it's too easy to forget that the 4th gen was already cobbled together from a great deal of 3rd gen platform, which was originally designed waaaaay back in the late 70's and early 80's. Our standards have been artificially set too low based on the ancient architecture of the 4th gen. I have owned a few of the best GM cars to come out recently, including the CTS, and I can tell you, that for those of you that haven't driven a modern GM platform...there simply is no comparison in terms of feel, comfort, and confidence instilled in the driver. The C5 would corner harder, but the CTS was just magic as a complete package. I have no worries that GM will create a similar feeling for the Camaro, while addressing some of the issues which kept certain types of buyers away. 3 months and counting...

 

Mine is up. As long as you promise to be able to again state that, "A Camaro SS with the ### suspension is faster than a base Corvette around Spring Mountain Motorsports Park."

 

Absolutely not, the Camaro should never slump to the Rustang's level


I personally feel a great job was done with the car. You guys managed to give enthusiasts an awesome performance car while working with a minimalist budget. It's unfourtunate that upper management screwed up, but all things considered an excelent job was done with the car.

You got that right about ergonomics and everything. It's funny that a car that was so driver oriented managed to turn so many off. I say, sucks for them. If someone wants to drive a car where you're comming out of your seat to grab third gear, good for them. I love the seating postion/ergonomics in my Camaro and really have no complaints about it. It feels like it was designed to be driven in. (The dash was admittedly very long, but that's just a little bad mixed in with a ton of good...It took about 10 minutes to get used to and now I love it ) Mustangs do just not feel right. They feel very pedestrian because you sit up high. They don't feel sporty and they don't inspire confidence when driving hard. They also don't look nearly as good as low slung cars like Camaros, Firebirds, Corvettes and Vipers. They are like the red-headed step child of American performance cars. I can say, I ask people all the time which car they prefer, (my '97 Z/28 or my friend's '99 GT or just Mustangs in general)...Most guys say my Camaro. Girls on the other hand are even quicker to say that they like Camaro...Usually do to the feel of the car, the look, etc. They generally comment that Camaros are much more sexy

Many times the people it intimidates are those who aren't into performance cars or driving in the first place, (That low driving position is nice because you can actually work the pedals easily and heel toe w/o hitting your knees on the steering wheel or dash), They want to sit up nice and high in their (*insert generic, boring family sedan type thing), because it makes them feel confident and important. They are the same people who sit so far foward in their cars that if they ever got into an accident, their head would be through the windshield before the seatbelt had a chance to lock up Basically, for the most part, most performance cars are low-slung, (exceptions being STI's and Evo's...I've been in WRX before and my dad has an '05 2.5 rs and the driving postion is so high you feel like your in a small pickup...not cool ), So if you've actually driven other performance cars, driving a Camaro shouldn't be a very odd feeling. If a low driving postion does scare people off, then it's probably safe to assume they aren't very confident in their driving abilities and probably shouldn't be behind the wheel of such a car anyway

 

See my previous post ...I wouldn't mind an IRS setup though if it could be done in a modern, lightweight, and inexpensive way

That would be very cool. I'm all for being able to mod your car the way you want...And not voiding the warranty Affordability of these parts is also key...The only thing though is it seems like most of the stuff, (take for example Ford Racing parts), is not as good as other aftermarket stuff that is availible. Generally, for every manufacturer's performance part there are always a few from the aftermarket guys that get the job done better for only a bit more money. Although, if offering that sort of stuff helps sales than so be it, it seems to be working for Scion and the new Stang.

No, they don't. Really my only complaints would concern build quality. They definetly could have been put together better. Also, I've never been in a factory 1LE car or a bilstein level 2 car, but my stock Z/28's suspension is just way to soft. It could have been more aggressive from the factory.

 

^ you hit the nail on the head with that post also i would say price also killed the camaro, i remember in the spring of 03 in the local paper they had a 2002 V6 camaro for sale for 30k and a ford dealer had a 2003 mustang GT for 28k-now which would you buy? the only option on the stang that the camaro had was t-tops which you couldn't get anyway.

 

NOOOO, lol Honestly, it would be a major turnoff for me if that were to happen. It would probably throw me into an irreversible depression