guionM

Just a few sober thoughts (unfortunately, I didn't partake in the usual Halloween festivities last night ).

GM will be back in the volume RWD business in less than 36 months (possibly as soon as 24). 3 years ago, the Solstice concept had been out 10 months already, living in Long Beach, for the 1st time I was in close contact with people who both coordinated the LA auto show & some of the people who made the concepts, had my 1st visits to the nearby Ford PAG/Mazda USA complex, and discovered that the I405 corrador not only was a west coast Detroit as far as future cars & that there was probally more prototypes cruising around that stretch than around Detroit itself..... in other words, 3 years isn't much time....at all!

The item that drives the 5th gen thread is the soap opera of GM's return to a volume RWD chassis. I showed up here shortly after GM tentatively decided that they would kill off Camaro. Since then I've met ALOT of great people behind the scenes, suppliers, even chairmans that I up till then I only read about. Not only from GM, but the other 2 US makers as well.

Been here through the time both Ford & Chrysler's vaults were bursting at the seems with cash & GM's "give-away-the-shop" strike settlement. Jac Nasser's efforts to move Ford upmarket and diversification as well as his and Ford's crash and burn. Chrysler's rape at the hands of Juergen Schrempp, and Chrysler's stunning return. But underneath it all was my desire to see the Camaro return and.... most important of all....BE COMPETITIVE IN THE SALES ARENA!!!

I see the next Camaro as being that. I see the next Camaro returning to it's roots that it strayed from begining in the 70s.

As a previous owner of a '68 Camaro, then many years later becoming a 3 time and current owner of the 4th gen after coming over from a series of Mustangs in between, I can easily see where the 4th gen went wrong. It became an out of the box car that did everything so well, and left so little to change or personalize for the people who would buy this type of car. In short, the Camaro simply lost it's fun factor.

Sure, nothing beats taking off the T-tops on a sunny, warm Los Angeles day, and driving around town (avoiding the freeways ) with a good CD and the rumble of an LT1 as background music (LS1 simply don't cut it in this area).

But buyers of this type of car, like me, want to do things to it.... on a budget. For example, over the years I did the following things to my '85 CHP Stang coupe (and this is by no means a complete list):
*Adjusted the timing by moving the distributer a few degrees.
*Added a racing radiator to match the silicone hoses.
*Newer special service kevlar fanbelt.
*Underdrive pulleys except for the alternator.
*Steering oil cooler
*Hurst shifter and an racing SVO clutch
*Shorty headers, and later a GT40 head & intake set with matching cam.
*Upgraded front brakes
*woodgrain dash panels from a wreaked Capri
*Chrome Motorsport intake airlid for it's dual snorkel aircleaner
*Strut tower brace and aftermarket shocks and upsized tires (especially in the rear).
*and alot more.

My goal was to make my Mustang indestructable through sustained high speed desert runs (especially weekend runs between San Diego and Vegas) and made it an autocross wonder. I could customize my Mustang to fit my specific need or desire.

By comparison, short of exhaust tips, custom paint, painted calipers, things I wanted to do to my Camaro were either non-existant or more money than I wanted to spend. In short, I couldn't modify it to my purposes or desires, and the factory pieces (especially the alternator and clutch, as well as the rear end) were junk compared to the Mustang I had that was 12 years older.

Sure, a Mustang doesn't stay as glued to the road as the Camaro out the box, meaning it takes less skill. But this means that for someone coming from Mustang, Camaro is pretty dull. In the Mustang, I got to pick various parts from both Ford and aftermarket companies to personalize my Mustang. Then at meets, owners would gather and share what they did to their Mustang, what worked, what didn't, whose speed shop did a great job, and there wre also a variety of factory Mustangs. They'd be a couple of SVOs, or a few Cobras from various years. I had Special Service Mustangs (my 85 dressed up with police rims with bolted on center caps & trim rings, 245s, and a woodgrain dash from a Capri). The only thing you hear about Camaro is they beat Mustangs. Meanwhile I'm thinking to myself "And..........???"

I have a feeling the next Camaro will address all Camaro's ills. I thing GM understands the need for owner involvement in the creation of their cars, judging by GM's actions with the aftermarket regarding the HHR & Cobalt, and their vivid attention to how the current Mustang is winning converts from even the Import Tuner community.

Once the new Camaro comes out, and a related Chevrolet Sedan that will undoubtedly spread to other divisions, and Chevrolet recreates the excitement of owner involvement in personalization from the Chevy's of my youth, what's going to be the next step of this "5th gen & future cars community"?

For me it's my enthusiasm for a good fight and wanting Chevrolet to get back in the ring that's driven me.

Once Chevy's back in the ring, it's going to be a little less fuel in this community.

Then what?

meissen

Then the debate begins about what the 6th gen has to offer.

Chewbacca

6th gen & Future Vehicle Discussion / Automotive News

Bob Cosby

There will ALWAYS be something to talk about here. Heck, a great majority of the threads right now have absolutely nothing to do with the Camaro.

Sounds like we're still looking at a MY08 or MY09 Camaro....perhaps an 09 in early CY08.

You mentioned a "related Chevrolet sedan." I suppose this means that the new Camaro will be built off a platform that is shared with a variety of other cars (Zeta, Beta, Deta, Geta, whatever). The economics of scale obviously points towards the sensibility of this approach, but hasn't Camaro always been on its own chassis - at least from the 3rd Gen on?

Chrome383Z

It will become the Lounge.

RussStang

Somehow, I really doubt this was the the cause of the 4th gens woes. When have you ever heard of car sales taking a slump, because they performed too well? That is just ridiculous. Does that mean that the Vettes would sell better if they performed worse? That the owners would be more inclined to buy one if they could personalize it for themselves? But Vette owners are older right, and don't want to be bothered by personalizing? But I thought the average age of the Mustang GT buyer was around 40 something, so according to the *ahem* market research, the Mustang owners can't be that much younger. The number one thing the Camaro needs to sell is style, plain and simple. It does not need to take a step backwards in performance. Quite the opposite. The world is marching on, and the new Camaro needs to be competitive in its field straight from the factory. A very stylish car, that performs really well, is the answer to what the new 5th gen needs to be, so it will please all of the performance junkies as well as the posers.

I would like to see at least one import shop that starting working on Mustangs when the new one came out. The new Mustang may be selling really well, but it really isn't taken all that seriously in the performance world. There really isn't that much difference in the eyes of an import lover between the old one and the new one. Almost the same identical engine, and heavier than the old model. The new Mustang gets recieved on this board like it is part of some sort of automotive renaissance, but it isn't destroying peoples perceptions of what the Mustang has been and still is, especially with the "tuner" crowd.

Z28Wilson

Hang on, I don't follow at all. So the Camaro handles better and "sticks to the road better" which means it isn't as fun to drive as a Mustang? I suppose if you like braking earlier and taking curves slower and less confidently, sure the less capable car would be more fun. Makes tossing those SUVs around through the twisties sound like a riot!

The aftermarket has always been quite supportive of the F-bodies, although I agree the big events have been a bit of a let-down as far as attendence (how many years has Red pledged to quit smoking if just 1,000 cars show up at the national F-body event in BG...heck 1,000 cars is considered a smaller regional event for Mustang). Camaro and Firebird owners do all the same stuff Mustang owners do in terms of modification and performance enhancements, I guess it just depends on your definition of "fun"...Do you prefer to mod your car to reach the competition's level or would you prefer the "out-of-the-box" performance that's a little more expensive or difficult to mod?

Z28Wilson

Me too. Let's be honest, while the new Mustang is a pretty nice success for Ford, let's not look at it through "All-American muscle car" glasses. The cars that win over the "import" crowd are SRT-4s and (perhaps) Cobalt SS. A modern day turbo V6 version of the Grand National would intrigue that crowd. A bigger, heavier pony car with retro styling doesn't exactly pander to the 20-something west coast import lover. It doesn't have that crossover formula. And just to be fair, I don't expect the new Camaro's formula to win over sport compact enthusiasts either. And that's just fine by me.

slayerxxx213

Personally, for me one of the main reasons I went with a my Z/28 over a foxbody was the stock performance, (besides the fact that they look better, are much cooler to drive and are a Chevy/Pontiac,lol). I figured, well I can buy a nice fox for like 3-4k and then put the rest of my cash into mods, or I can spend more on an F-body that looks better and performs far better from the factory. I went with choice B. I have never understood why people are so infatuated with Mustangs. There is nothing special about them. Even when they were faster in the 80's that's all they were. By the fourth gen they had absolutely nothing on f-bodies. The way I see it is if you want a softer, less performance oriented me-too car, you buy a Mustang. If you want a real performance car that is affordable, fun, and good looking, you buy an F-body. The F-body was always the more hardcore of the cars and should remain that way. If the 5th is anything less than that I'll probably look elsewhere. The new 'Stang is a very sorry excuse for a muscle/performance car is you ask me. Chevy should stay far away from Ford's formula...If that can't be done then the Camaro/Firebird should be left dead. Better that then ruining their reputation by softening the car up.

Z284ever

Sometimes I feel like a broken record, 'cause I know I've said this before....

I don't believe the 4th gen failed because of it's performance....it failed because it offered nothing more than that performance.

Ask yourself these questions:
Other than people on this board...

1) How many people do you know who felt the 4th gen was drop dead gorgeous?

2) How many people do you know who felt the 4th gen was the right size?

3) How many people do you know who found the 4th gen's interior/ergonomics/driving position to be "just right"?

4) How many people do you know who felt the 4th gen had an appealing model line-up?

5) And how many people do you know who answered positively to questions 1-4, who actually bought new?

As far as I'm concerned...performance was the 4th gen's ONE saving grace.

BTW, good thread Guy...it's been slow around here.

guionM

You just proved my point on how many Camaro owners are pretty out of touch.

Charlie said it PERFECTLY in the above post. If anyone thinks crediblity in performance circles alone is going to make a car work should be working for Isuzu or some other company that's poised for the scrapheap of automotive history. Mustang did so many things right that Camaro's performance edge did zero for it, and actually may have hurt it (I wish I had a dollar for every person who though my '97 Z got worse mileage than the same year Mustang GT!).

4th gen Camaro Z28 (especially starting in 1998) simply blew away Mustang GT in performance in every catagory. Camaro's starting in 1998 went into what can only be described as a freefall in sales.

I'm giving my point as someone who has owned quite a few of both, and I can tell you my observations from both sides that is likely going to be shared by others who have owned both.

You say it's ridiculous, so let's hear your explaination for Mustang's trouncing of Camaro.


Again, a narrow Camaro view. Saleen ring a bell? How about Roush? Both had versions of the new Mustang out the box. Both were privy to Mustang's development expecially so they could get their own versions out soon after the new Mustang hit the streets. Ford made them part of the process!

I don't know about how things are in your area, but I'd be willing to wager that every single person here in California has seen more variations of the new Mustang in just a year of production than there was of the 4th gen F-body it's entire 9 year run.

I can also give you more links than you'd know what to do with, if you'd like.

Bottom line is this, Mustang is taken VERY seriously in the performance world. Perhaps it may not be in your corner, or your group. But even if you don't take my word for it, Mustang is currently THE performance car.

The guys behind the next Camaro are taking alot of notes..... trust me on this.

(BTW: You noticed it's been slow around here too, huh Charlie? )

WERM

Yup. This place is going to go to hell in a handbasket as soon as they unveil the first "Camaro Concept". At least until the admins separate 5th gen from "Future Vehicle Discussion".

Yup. The Mustang sold with the underpowered Mustang engine, but if the Camaro had the same engine instead of the LT1/LS1, it would have tanked, BIG TIME.

RussStang

You know, I did own a 2001 GT for almost two years. Hence the username. They are certainly not foreign to me, and I really would have to say you are the one way out of touch. How exactly do you think that the Camaro performing too well killed its sales numbers? That is utter garbage. Saying I have a narrow minded Camaro viewpoint is simply an attempt to disregard the point I made. The new Camaro should and can perform amazing. It is the styling that needs to be up to snuff. Refer to z284ever's last post. His points should be taken, as they are very insightful into the Camaro's demise.


What exactly is your point about Saleen or Rousch? I wasn't aware they were import tuners. In fact, I wasn't aware they have ever modified an import, so that point bears little semblance of regard to my original point. Besides, are you trying to tell me that if you want real Mustang performance, there is always a $40k Saleen or Rousch you can buy? I wonder how many Mustangs would have ever sold under those pretenses?

I would love for you to give me some links to some import shops that are now modifing Mustangs. That is something I would love to see. And what are your experiences as the Mustang being taken very seriously as a performance car? Because your magazine features them occasionally? The new Mustang has already started to become the car that a body shop will modify to show how stylish the shop can be, and then they all just seem to throw on a blower as an afterthought and are done with it. Have you ever talked to any of the younger guys that go to the street races constantly? The ones who are obsessed with performance first? The only Mustangs that get taken seriously there are the 5.0s, with very few exceptions (before someone jumps down my throat about how street racing is bad, it is not my intention of defending street racing in this post, just proving a point.)

What is your evidence that the Mustang is THE performance car right now? The magazines? Seems to me even the mainstream mags still either rave about how great the new Evos/STIs are, or about how great the new z06 is. The new Mustang is always regarded as a high bang for the buck fun car. Fun and performance don't always go hand in hand, if they did we would be seeing many more Miatas ripping up the road.

dav305z

Great post, and very inciteful. However, in your reasoning for the Camaro's demise, I believe you have done what you often (correctly) accuse other here of doing. That is, you've taken your minority opinion, and extended it to the entire market for this car.

Most people, even most Camaro owners, don't really care about modding their vehicles. Most Camaro owners have historically been women driving V6 powered vehicles.

On that note, it's rather simple to explain what happened to the Camaro. While the V8 powered 4th-gens became performance legends, and did quite well for themselves sales wise, the bread and butter V6 coupe was left to flounder and became one of GM's most obsolete vehicles.

What Ford did with the Mustang was to make sure that the V6 powered car carries almost all of the visual appeal of the GT. Ford remembers who'se paying for this car to exist.

Now, think for a second, without the V8, what would have appealed to the average customer about the V6 Camaro. Style? Does anyone really want to argue that the 4th gen Camaro was a looker? Add onto that the wheel covers that came with the base car and you have a rather unattractive car competing in a style segment.

Practicality? Would it really be worth living with those heavy doors, a uselss backseat, and horrible front seat for 3800 V6 performance?

Now, keep in mind I'm asking this from the perspective of an average customer. My dad had a '97 Camaro V6 and liked it, but only because he loved the Camaro to begin with.

People here write that the V6 Camaro could and should be quicker than the base Mustang. Great, I'd like that. But again, it's a case of people here missing the point. What the V6 Camaro needs to be, first and foremost, is a good car. It needs to still have enough appeal without the V8 to make people want to plunk down cash on one rather than on a Mustang, Eclipse, or any of the other sporty coupes in this price range (of which there are a growing number it seems).

Z284ever

That's true about Mustang, but WHY!!!!????

It seems Ford continuously fuels the Mustang fire for it's enthusiasts. Camaro? Short of our pal RP, .................not much.

Look at the current Mustang. Geeeze, Ford owns this market, it's plant is near capacity, it's competition is nearly non existent....and they still fuel the Mustang fire.
They sure didn't NEED to bring the optional Pony Package on the V6 car this year, but they did. They didn't NEED to make 18" wheels optional (the new fanblades and in spring a version of the Bullitt wheel), on the GT this year (in addition to it's two available 17" wheels)...but they did. GT500, they've shown us.

I should go on, but I've got a halloween party to go to..............