RussStang

That was a pretty amusing analogy.

guionM

I'll make this quick because I have to get back down to Monterey (and I should have been gone a few hours ago..... damn internet! )

Just because something isn't happening in your backyard doesn't mean it isn't happening at all or even widespread. Every street gathering I've been to in the bay area, the LA area, the Las Vegas area, the San Diego area, and of course, the homebase in Monterey county have plenty of Mustangs and shops that specialize in Mustangs.

a) You asked me what aftermarket tuners had a version of Mustang when it came out, and I told you. Nothing to misinterpret.

b) I brought up 2 American Tuners in response to your question about what aftermarket tuners had a version of the Mustang when it came out.

c) I said Mustang is winning over members of the Import Tuner crowd, which had nothing to do with (or was in the same sentence as) a) and c).

d) 5.0 SN95s responded as well as Fox cars did. Their revised suspension absorbed alot of the snap the Fox had. The early 4.6s I agree were crap (and what drove me to Camaros in the 1st place), by '99, Ford finally got their act together on the stock engines and started having parts available that were on par in quality and power potential with the 5.0.

e) It can be said that any computer program that releases alot of power means that the factory didn't tune their engines worth a damn. That can also apply to LT1s.



16 year olds don't buy new cars, but if we are talking about used, look at whos driving them now. Maybe things are differet where you are in PA (I'm from Pittsburgh, and I saw plenty of younger (as opposed to young) people in Mustangs at Keystone when I visited the parents.


Are we talking up in Oakland, over in San Jose, or up in Santa Clara.

Monterey also has a pretty awesome street gathering of locals right around the time of the Road and Track Invitationals over at Laguna Seca, and when Cherry's Jublee takes over Monterey every September, it attracks every car nut from seemingly everywhere.

Which one do you mean??


Mustang GT sales are running about 55% right now. That would put it around 90,000 cars. Look up the sales figures of the EVO.

Are they close?.......No.

Does the Evo offer the same bang for the buck?....No.
(the IX is $33K and the MR is a jawdropping $36K. Mustang GTs start at $25K... well equpted.)


Mitsu Evo is a $31,000



Agreed on the sidetrack part.

At no point did I say Camaro should have less power. But to think power alone is what's wrong with the car without looking at what made Mustang so sucessful is also pretty off.

poSSum

I guess it's where I live and the car folks I tend to relate to the most (www.chirpthird.com), becuase there is very little in Guy's opening post that I agree with.

I ordered the SS 'vert in 1999 because as "World of Wheels", a great Canadian auto rag, put it, the Camaro was "nostalgia with a warranty". I fully expected to keep it stock and enjoy it's exceptional performance, economy, and looks. I did that, but also fell victim to the mod bug, then autox, then driving schools, to this date culminating in the addition of 2 hardtops to the mix.

IMO the 4th gen will go down in history as one of the best kept performance value secrets in automotive history.

Why the didn't sell in the required numbers? I think Charlie nailed that in his post.

I

97z28/m6

yes to 1-4 no to 5BECAUSE THE DEALER DIDN"T WANT TO SELL ME ONE!


actual conversation (nov.2000)
ME: how much for a new Z28?
DEALER: you don't want one of those because they are too much.

guionM

You're right.

I just ONLY live here.

Really?

I'm going to take mines in the back and shoot him in the head so I can get one that's self feeding, self grooming, and I never have to walk him.

97z28/m6

MAYBE THAT'S THE REASON THEY DIDN'T SELL you know you can't sell a car that has no advertising and not on the dealers lots but what do i know i'm just a consumer.

FormulaLT193

RussStang, we live in the same town, and the import people that i know and rarely but somtimes hang out with and talk too, They all seem to like the new mustang, because its "Old School" almost every ricer ive ever talked to hates americans cars of today, but like and respect the cars from the 60's. since the new stang looks like its from the 60's, they seem to like it.

guionM

Wanted to say, good thread and alot of great debate going on here.

Nice to get break the monotony every once in awhile, and get some good discussion going on.

Kind of like poking around a hornet's nest just to see what will happen....

BTW: I'll probally be off this thread for a week, so don't go spreading anymore rumors that I've been kidnapped by GM execs in Black Suburbans, and is being probed and brainwashed like some of you did earlier this year.

Bob Cosby

I'd like to thank ya'll (especially Guy) for the entertainment here.

Somebody mentioned a Mustang sells "because it is a Mustang". There is probably some truth to that - though I wonder how many recent Mustang owners would still be Mustang owners if the Probe had been the Mustang some 15+ years ago? Also, I would suggest that performance is indeed a very big part of the Mustang Formula. For evidence, I offer FoMoCo support of the following:

National Mustang Racer's Association
Fun Ford Weekend
World Ford Challenge

Is there a National WRX Racer's Association? Fun Evo Weekend? World Supra Challenge? Perhaps there is - I don't pretend to know the import crowd. There are indeed National-level Import race organizations that cater to those cars in general.

Some F-body folks have tried to jumpstart organizations like the above (I've even helped on a couple), but sadly, none have been really successful yet.

Chrome383Z

The 4th gen was DOG UGLY. That's why it didn't sell.

And it didnt' help the 3rd gens were flat out sexy...

94LightningGal

When I bought my '91 Mustang GT, I did test drive the Camaro, and the Firebird. Even after I had my Mustang, I drove the 93+ Camaro, as a point of comparison, when I was thinking of trading up to the '94+.

These are my thoughts on the car.

First off, my Mustang was a daily driver. Thus, while I wanted it to be fun, it also had to be easy to live with, on a daily basis. I didn't want to be falling into the seat............. trying to climb out when my 30 foot long door couldn't be opened fully.............. trying to peer over 20 feet of dash............... trying to mod an engine that was halfway under the cowl............. or playing toss it into the corners in a car that was way too big for the size of the interior (it made the Mustang look small by comparison).

Say what you may about performance........... but lets be honest here, the people who post here are performance people. If a new Mustang GT had 500hp stock, and cost $30K, people would say............ why not 550hp and $25K. Its just the way we are. Yet, with the Mustang, I was willing to give up some of that initial performance, for the promise of a car that was easy to live with. I know that the Mustang aftermarket was huge........... so I could make the car anything I wanted it to be. However, when driving to and from work, the compromises to drive the Camaro/Firebird were just to great............... in the trade-off for the extra performance.

Most people do not regularly go to the quarter mile. Most people do not regularly SCCA race their cars. Most people do not street race their cars. Most people rarely even floor their cars. Most people drive from point a to point b in their cars. If the car has the ability to be fun, when they ask it to be.............. and puts a smile on their face, as they approach it in the parking lot............. they are pretty happy.

BTW, if anyone tries to play the "your a girl, you wouldn't understand" card, I will find you............... and pull your ******* over your head.

Doug Harden

Just a note to all you wussies that say Camaros are hard to mod.........bull hockey!!

I've modded a ton of them in EVERY possible manner...hell, we even pull the engine and tranny out the top just like I do my 1969............bunch of wussies.........d&r........

Hell, I didn't have my C5 home a week before the mods began.............(uh...maybe it's me ?!?! )

90 Z28SS

Guy - I pretty much agree with u on all points . The one thing I dont really understand is your persistence to say you havent been able to customize your camaro's in the way you could your fox bodies . Maybe Im just not understanding you right . Every mod you listed done to one of your stangs , you could have done to both your LT1 and LS1 Z's . The 4th gen aftermarket is every bit as monsterous as the Fox and SN-95 aftermarkets in every aspect ....from engine to suspension , to appearence . The only thing I will give you on the aftermarket issue is the Mustang body has always been much more flexible in changing its appearence . To where as the F cars I dont think have ever taken well to apperence mods short of a hood , rims and paint options .

When the 4th gens came out , I remember there were several tuner cars within the first year . By 94 there was Camaro ZR28 from LG motorsports , A complete turn key car from Doug Rippe Motorsports , the TPIS ZZ28 , Complete turnkey cars from Lingenfelter , Hennesy , MTI , Car Pro Motorsports , Modern Musclecar , Callaway ect ect ect ect ect . Lets not forget the last few years with the Berger cars , and the ZL1 . The reason I dont think any of them were very prominent directly relatated to the Camaro's limited appeal outside of hardcore enthusists. If its not that then I dunno what the hell it was because 05 Mustang type aftermarket has been there since the begining on the 4th gens and to this day continues to grow even though the cars have been dead for 3 years now . The parts are there to make a 4th gen absolutely anything you want it to be from a 7 sec LSx powered drag car ( stock style suspension , 10" tire LS1 based f-bodies have made it there ) , to all out showcar , street strip , autoX'er ...anything man

Diognes56

You guys are arguing the same the same thing with different wording, and WERM said it the best. The Camaro was the better sports car than the Mustang, and it sold like a sports car does. The Mustang was the more practical sporty car, and it sold more because most people are looking for something reasonably practical that looks good, it is all about practicality and image. I wonder, how many people bought a 1 or 2 year old Corvette rather than purchase a new SS Camaro? The Vette was only slightly less practical, more comfortable, had better performance, has a better image. Simply put, the Camaro was shooting to close to Corvette territory, not in performance (it was fine in that category) but in practicality. I can't wait for the 5th Gen .

David

detltu

I ran into a little of that issue myself. The only salesperson that did want to sell me one told me about his 120 mph excursion in the particular car in a race with a mustang. Then latar at the same dealership I saw one of the other salespeople leaving in said car and he was SMOKING! Needless to say that really ticked me off and I ended up buying a used 99.

On another note I have to agree that the performance definately had nothing to do with the failure of the 4th gen. Seating position (great for performance enthusiasts bad for mid life crisis and short skirts) price (great performance bargain but still quite an investment) and lack of aftermarket support, little to no advertising, and poor dealerships (this one also contributes to GM's over all problems) all contributed to the 4th gen's poor sales.

Also the poor aftermarket support was not due to the cars already stellar performace (as some would suggest). This can be almost a catch 22 situation where there can't be a large aftermarket if the car doesn't sell particularly well. I would be curious to see the difference in numbers of enthusiasts (who might modify their cars) sales of the Mustang versus the Camaro. This would probalby disprove my theory on the aftermarket issue

great original post by guionM as usuall but I disagree with a few things this time

Bring on the fifth gen