Cobra got beat
02-22-2009, 09:22 PM
#62
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02-22-2009, 09:30 PM
#63
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I don't know about you, but I spend a lot more time going around corners in my Camaro than I do changing spark plugs. It's about priorities....
02-23-2009, 02:16 PM
#65
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The 06-08 Mustang with a CAI will run 8.8-9ish... may a little better with solid start... and that's high 13s in the 1/4. I am not sure we've had an 09 pull in yet, but if he did, it wasn't sufficiently impressive for anyone to note that's what it was... BUT... the 06-08s and certainly the 09s are sitting on a generation of upgrades... dual overhead cams, a zillion valves popping off those cams... and they're in perfect shape.
So yeah... in my opinion the Z28 LT1 is a far superior vehicle to the Mustang, but we gotta be honest here and just flat admit that a stock 93Z with a couple of bolt ons is gonna run 9.2,3,4 with a 2.3,4,5 60' and trapping 76-78ish mph, with the occassional 9.1 given a solid blast out of the hole... Add a set of LTs and Mickeys and you're in the top end of the 8s... and that puts ya right with the late model GTs... which is great runnin.' Classic GM /Ford passes of comparable power/speed are a BLAST!
But a stock 93 will typically have 150k+ miles; that means fairly well worn rings and the heads are gonna be loose as a goose and that means it's inefficient... add a CIA and a set of pipes (and FYI: gutting the cats does NOT a set of Headers make... by any stretch) through gutted cats is gonna get fed to the 06 Mustang with 30,000 miles, running in prime condition... pretty much every time. Hell... and that's even with ME drivin'... which is always a plus
So yeah... in my opinion the Z28 LT1 is a far superior vehicle to the Mustang, but we gotta be honest here and just flat admit that a stock 93Z with a couple of bolt ons is gonna run 9.2,3,4 with a 2.3,4,5 60' and trapping 76-78ish mph, with the occassional 9.1 given a solid blast out of the hole... Add a set of LTs and Mickeys and you're in the top end of the 8s... and that puts ya right with the late model GTs... which is great runnin.' Classic GM /Ford passes of comparable power/speed are a BLAST!
But a stock 93 will typically have 150k+ miles; that means fairly well worn rings and the heads are gonna be loose as a goose and that means it's inefficient... add a CIA and a set of pipes (and FYI: gutting the cats does NOT a set of Headers make... by any stretch) through gutted cats is gonna get fed to the 06 Mustang with 30,000 miles, running in prime condition... pretty much every time. Hell... and that's even with ME drivin'... which is always a plus
02-23-2009, 03:27 PM
#66
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02-23-2009, 10:50 PM
#67
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This is true of the vast majority of modern cars. In the case of the F-body, it's largely responsible for the 4th gen's weight distribution, which is one of many contributors to the great handling.
I don't know about you, but I spend a lot more time going around corners in my Camaro than I do changing spark plugs. It's about priorities....
I don't know about you, but I spend a lot more time going around corners in my Camaro than I do changing spark plugs. It's about priorities....
Modern - that's one of the biggest issues I have. Cars nowadays seem to be built around not letting the owners touch them instead relying heavily on dealerships for work to be completed.
My Z was a daily driven ''drag'' car and was highly modified with the Vortech, cam, valvetrain + bolt ons. Was constantly needing to work on the LT1 to keep it running and it was far more advanced than the average spark plug or wire changes - I actually enjoyed doing those because after owning the car and modifying it that long I had a method to those changes.
The clearance in my Fox Mustang is head and shoulders above what my Z had - obviously we're talking about an 86 car next to a 94 but that was the whole reason I dumped the Z and got the 'stang.
02-24-2009, 12:17 PM
#68
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Why is everyone intent on comparing modded for stock? The truth is that stock for stock, mod for mod the new generation GT's are about 30 hp to the wheels better than our beloved LT1's. Until you really start pouring in money on a heads/cam package or a FI setup do you start to close that gap. But once you reach that point then it doesn't matter what pony car you drive. It all becomes cubic dollars then.
Why in the world would you ever say it takes a H/C package (which would also require supporting bolt on mods) or FI to close the gap between a 300HP mustang and a 285HP Camaro???????????? Throw in the fact that an LT1 Camaro weighs less and also produces more torque. The new mustangs are just a hair faster than LT1 Camaros and Trans Am's. Right in between the LT1 and LS1. A couple hundred dollars in bolt ons will close the gap, not a H/C or FI setup. If done properly, a good H/C LT1 will run low 12's all day with a good handful hitting high 11's. H/C closes the gap with 03/04 Cobra's, C5 Z06's and cars of the sort.
02-25-2009, 04:07 PM
#69
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You need to reread what I said. Mod for mod the LT1 will be 30 hp to the wheels less than the 3V GT. Not until you go to H/C packages or FI setups will that gap will decrease MOD FOR MOD. So if you do a H/C package on an LT1 it will perform closer to if not better than a H/C 3v GT. Same with any FI setup. And yes, a fully built LT1 will close the gap on a STOCK Terminator Cobra or C5Z but once again this is assuming that your competitor is going to be bone stock.
I need to quit trying to bring some reality into the Track Kills section. Reality and real world experience just doesn't shine as well as the fluff here.
I need to quit trying to bring some reality into the Track Kills section. Reality and real world experience just doesn't shine as well as the fluff here.
02-25-2009, 04:15 PM
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Why in the world would you ever say it takes a H/C package (which would also require supporting bolt on mods) or FI to close the gap between a 300HP mustang and a 285HP Camaro???????????? Throw in the fact that an LT1 Camaro weighs less and also produces more torque. The new mustangs are just a hair faster than LT1 Camaros and Trans Am's. Right in between the LT1 and LS1. A couple hundred dollars in bolt ons will close the gap, not a H/C or FI setup. If done properly, a good H/C LT1 will run low 12's all day with a good handful hitting high 11's. H/C closes the gap with 03/04 Cobra's, C5 Z06's and cars of the sort.
Ah yes, the flywheel ratings of two cars built 10 years apart. Truth is that the average auto equipped LT1 puts down 23x hp and 26x ft/lbs of torque to the wheels BONE STOCK. There are some higher but that isn't the norm. The average auto equipped 3V GT puts down 26x for both categories.
So if you can put "a couple of hundred of dollars in bolt ons" on one then why can't you do it on the other? By that logic it would be no different to say that I could whoop an LT1 with just a couple of mods to my '81 Civic. Just doesn't make sense to compare modded to stock when almost noone races a bone stock car.
02-25-2009, 04:32 PM
#71
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I would race any similarly modded Camaro or Firebird. You win some you lose some.
I pray to God that Ford does release the 5.0 Coyote on time next year, so I can revisit this thread and say what happened to the SS? I thought GM had the faster pony car?
02-25-2009, 10:42 PM
#72
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Ah yes, the flywheel ratings of two cars built 10 years apart. Truth is that the average auto equipped LT1 puts down 23x hp and 26x ft/lbs of torque to the wheels BONE STOCK. There are some higher but that isn't the norm. The average auto equipped 3V GT puts down 26x for both categories.
So if you can put "a couple of hundred of dollars in bolt ons" on one then why can't you do it on the other? By that logic it would be no different to say that I could whoop an LT1 with just a couple of mods to my '81 Civic. Just doesn't make sense to compare modded to stock when almost noone races a bone stock car.
the real message here is this...
while I do like some fords... a mustang is not something I would generally compare to a camaro
fords 2008 Mustang GT for example, almost 2 FULL DECADES after the debut of the LT1, barely edges out the LT1, and half of that gap isn't because it's that much better, it's because the LT1's all have 100k-200k on the clock with worn out springs and such
bottome line... chevy performance OWNS ford performance.... and it's been this way for decades
02-26-2009, 07:29 AM
#73
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the real message here is this...
while I do like some fords... a mustang is not something I would generally compare to a camaro
fords 2008 Mustang GT for example, almost 2 FULL DECADES after the debut of the LT1, barely edges out the LT1, and half of that gap isn't because it's that much better, it's because the LT1's all have 100k-200k on the clock with worn out springs and such
while I do like some fords... a mustang is not something I would generally compare to a camaro
fords 2008 Mustang GT for example, almost 2 FULL DECADES after the debut of the LT1, barely edges out the LT1, and half of that gap isn't because it's that much better, it's because the LT1's all have 100k-200k on the clock with worn out springs and such
I disagree again. On the average the Fox body Mustang was faster than its Third gen rival. And even though there was no F-body offered in '03/'04 there is no denying the power of the Terminator Cobras. IMO, that is best performing pony car ever made. For the same amount of money it would take to get an LT1 car to 300 to the wheels, an LS1 to 350, it takes a Cobra to 480.
02-26-2009, 12:21 PM
#74
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So tell me more about this motor. All I have heard is that they are wanting to put a more production friendly version of the Cammer engine in the next Mustang. There are rumors of a baby version of the FI 5.4 offered in the GT500 but I wouldn't expect it. To do that would either raise the price dramatically (above that of the new Camaro) or it would greatly lower the quality of the rest of the car to offset costs. Not to mention your beloved weight advantage would be out the window. Now a car with the Ecoboost motor...
I still disagree. Mid 13's compared to low 14's doesn't exactly "edge" out the competition.
I disagree again. On the average the Fox body Mustang was faster than its Third gen rival. And even though there was no F-body offered in '03/'04 there is no denying the power of the Terminator Cobras. IMO, that is best performing pony car ever made. For the same amount of money it would take to get an LT1 car to 300 to the wheels, an LS1 to 350, it takes a Cobra to 480.
and while 08 GT's can run a 13.5... that is on a BRAND NEW engine and that IS NOT the norm
an...on the cobra comment vs the LS1... wrong... if we're talking about modding a cobra to get it to 480rwhp then you have to take into account total cost... brand new purchase price of a cobra plus the mods to put 480 to the wheels will cost more than it does to throw a turbo or sc on an LS1 which can easily put an LS1 over 500rwhp
And 3rd gens ended in 92... that was almost 2 full decades ago, since then Chevy has owned Ford
I'm comparing engine capability... the 4.6 in the 03/04 cobras is not even comparable to an LS1.. because lets face it, LS1's put down over 300rwhp stock, and a cobra is right around 340-350...and that's with a S/C... you can argue that "stock for stock" stuff, but you still have to pay for that supercharger, so whether you buy it directly from ford and their dealerships or you buy it from ATI, doesn't matter, you're gonna have to put up the money for it
ford has never built a production engine for their mustangs, cobras or their gt as capable or impressive as the LSX... it's not a matter of opinion, it's a fact
02-26-2009, 05:56 PM
#75
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I disagree... plenty of "worn out" LT1's run 13.9's stock
and while 08 GT's can run a 13.5... that is on a BRAND NEW engine and that IS NOT the norm
an...on the cobra comment vs the LS1... wrong... if we're talking about modding a cobra to get it to 480rwhp then you have to take into account total cost... brand new purchase price of a cobra plus the mods to put 480 to the wheels will cost more than it does to throw a turbo or sc on an LS1 which can easily put an LS1 over 500rwhp
And 3rd gens ended in 92... that was almost 2 full decades ago, since then Chevy has owned Ford
I'm comparing engine capability... the 4.6 in the 03/04 cobras is not even comparable to an LS1.. because lets face it, LS1's put down over 300rwhp stock, and a cobra is right around 340-350...and that's with a S/C... you can argue that "stock for stock" stuff, but you still have to pay for that supercharger, so whether you buy it directly from ford and their dealerships or you buy it from ATI, doesn't matter, you're gonna have to put up the money for it
ford has never built a production engine for their mustangs, cobras or their gt as capable or impressive as the LSX... it's not a matter of opinion, it's a fact
and while 08 GT's can run a 13.5... that is on a BRAND NEW engine and that IS NOT the norm
an...on the cobra comment vs the LS1... wrong... if we're talking about modding a cobra to get it to 480rwhp then you have to take into account total cost... brand new purchase price of a cobra plus the mods to put 480 to the wheels will cost more than it does to throw a turbo or sc on an LS1 which can easily put an LS1 over 500rwhp
And 3rd gens ended in 92... that was almost 2 full decades ago, since then Chevy has owned Ford
I'm comparing engine capability... the 4.6 in the 03/04 cobras is not even comparable to an LS1.. because lets face it, LS1's put down over 300rwhp stock, and a cobra is right around 340-350...and that's with a S/C... you can argue that "stock for stock" stuff, but you still have to pay for that supercharger, so whether you buy it directly from ford and their dealerships or you buy it from ATI, doesn't matter, you're gonna have to put up the money for it
ford has never built a production engine for their mustangs, cobras or their gt as capable or impressive as the LSX... it's not a matter of opinion, it's a fact
But if you want to get technical....look at drag racings fastest growing class, 10.5 Outlaw. Who owns the records in it? What type of motor does he run? Thank you.
Here is a link to info on the Coyote:
http://www.leftlanenews.com/ford-coyote-v8.html