I'm getting some used BBK shorties for cheap here in a couple weeks, I'll let you all know what kind of gains I see at the track with them.

Edit: WOOOOOT!!! 1000 posts!! And it only took me 3+ years.

 

So I guess we should all stick with our stock manifolds and cats if we aren't doing long tubes, since Midlength headers and off road Y-pipe won't gain us anything.

So the 15% extra area of the 1 3/4" primaries somehow magically make them usable now?

I'd like to see some data to back up your claims. I'm not trying to be a jerk here, but mid-length headers are worth something, just not as much as long tubes. Prove me wrong. Please. I'd love to not have to spend $600 on headers.

Dan

 

You might try reading what I said in context with the post that I quoted.

Not trying to be a jerk here, but the original poster that I quoted is implying that he is somehow FASTER than if he had gone with longtubes on his heads/cam car. Yeah, right....

He seems to mistakenly believe that his midlength MAC headers with 1 5/8" primaries somehow make more top end than 1 3/4" Hooker/FLPs due to the fact that shorter primary tubes make more top end horsepower. I, however, was pointing out that this is INCORRECT. Whatever the Hooker/FLPs lose in top end due to their longer primaries they certainly make up for with the larger diameter primaries COMPARED TO THE MACs.

Now, you will see I noted that AS&M and SLP mids/shorties would obviously not apply to this comparison, since they have larger primaries. It is entirely conceivable that THESE mids/shorties COULD make more top end than LTs. They also would not make as much low end torque as longtubes, so its really a tradeoff. 1 3/4" midlengths are certainly NOT a waste of money. 1 5/8" midlengths however are NOT even going to approach the top end potential of a 1 3/4" header, longtube, mid, or otherwise.

 

Boy this thread is almost as hot as my STOCK manifolds after a 3 hour E-way ride to Ohio.

Charlie

 

For reference, once again, I was replying to this post and this post alone.

He seems to imply that he could have spent more on longtubes and went slower. He also seems to think the fact that his headers are midlengths will make up for the fact that they have 1 5/8" primary tubes.

Whatever, I'm done.

 

TheHeadFL,

Ok. That does explain your previous post. Thanks. I was taking it out of context, but it wasn't obvious from your previous post. So you think it would be much better getting the AS&M's versus the MAC's? Is there a way to calculate the shift in effective RPM of the header due to the change in primary size from 1 5/8 to 1 3/4? I'm wondering since it is so attractive for MAC midlength headers with the jet-hot coating for $561 shipped. The AS&M's are way more than that. I guess I could look at the RKsport version, which is $600+shipping, but I doubt the coating even comes close to Jet-Hots.

Do you have any experiance or heard anything about the RKsports?

Thanks,
Dan

 

A bottleneck is a bottle neck, blow through a straw, then blow through a toilet paper tube. Now which one allows you to exhale a whole lung full of air first? POINT IS, length is not as important as tube diameter. The headers can be 12 ft long, but as long as the primaries are small, they will show very small gains. Well why would a header manufacturer make headers with a smaller primary opposed to a larger one when they know what works? Because everyone wants something different. More back preassure, more 2nd gear acceleration, more low end grunt, etc. Long tubes are a little more difficult to install yes, but the fact of the matter is that most people tend to think that they are better. Shorties were not developed because they are easier to install, they were developed because they bring something else to the table. One is not BETTER than the other, they are just different.

Charlie

 

I know the RKSports are made in the same factory as the AS&Ms and I think are supposedly the same exact header. When I was researching what header to buy, AS&Ms were on my wishlist forever. These are probably the best mid length header in existence, and lots of people can back it up.

I also wanted to do the MACs, because of the price.

But there were a few reasons I changed my mind and went with LTs.

For the AS&Ms,
1) These headers are about the most expensive non LT header you can get once you combine it with everything I would have needed to hook it up to my stock 96+ exhaust.
2) I would need them recoated, again, raising expense.

For the MACs,
1) These headers are cheap, but they get expensive when you have to coat them. You WANT a coating. Jet Hot quoted me a couple hundred bucks on coating for these headers but I guess they sell them direct now.
2) The primary diameter on these headers really did it for me. They don't allow much room for growth. I wanted to do heads/cam in the future and would want to be doing 12s @ 115+ and I don't think this is the best header for anything more than a bolton car.

Now, why did I chose Jet Hot LTs:

For the longest time, the only two real LT options were Hooker and FLP. You got Hookers if you wanted cheap, you got FLPs if you didn't want to scrape speedbumps. FLPs costed an arm and a leg. Hookers were absolutely sans emissions altogether, including O2 sensor bungs.

But then Jet Hot revised the Hookers and gave me compelling reasons:
1) Ground clearance barely worse than stock, easily as good as FLP.
2) Thicker guage steel.
3) Jet Hot coated in and out INCLUDED in the price, which was already a bargain.
4) O2 sensor bungs welded in, and you could get them with emissions if you wanted.
5) You get the max Torque and HP of a longtube with the clearance of a mid or shortie.
6) There are a number of cheap Y pipe options. I purchased the Hooker Y from Jet Hot.

 

o.k., cool.

I agree with you, but the ground clearance on the Jet-Hot's that I've seen pics of are not near what a mid-length get's you. It's better than the Hookers, but I still would not be totally comfortable with it.

You mention cost, but when you add in the cost of the custom Y-pipe or Hooker Y-pipe for the LT's, it gets pretty pricy. The MAC midlengths come with the headers and the y-pipe, with everything Jet-Hot coated inside and out including the Y-pipe.

Is the coating on the AS&M's that bad that they need to be recoated? I wasn't aware of that.

I'm only looking to make about 350 rwhp at the max, so I guess my choice in headers is skewed a little different than you since I know that I probably won't even max out a mid-length header with that HP.

Do the RKsports have the same coating as the AS&M's, as far as you know? What problems have people had with the AS&M coating?

Thanks for being so thorough on the previous post.

Dan

 

I can't comment on AS&M/RK Sport's coating since I don't know. I just know I would just assume have Jet Hot coating on any header since it is guaranteed to be better. While some coatings may not flake, you really want the thermal protection Jet Hot offers.

Also, you have a 97, so you need to take into account getting a S pipe to bolt to your catback.

Beyond that, I think you would find longtubes only cost around $100 more than a full setup of midlengths. Don't forget you want better gaskets, bolts, yada yada yada. It ended up costing me well over $1000 to do my headers when you factor in miscellaneous BS here and there, over the valve cover wires, y pipe, obd1 conversion (obviously this is optional) and other nonsense.

A word about ground clearance though, I have Jet Hot LTs and my buddy Adam does also, and he has a 1.5" drop. In my parking lot here we have the speed bumps of death. Neither me, nor him, have scraped our LTs yet on these things. These things used to scrape on my random technology dual cat Y. Jet Hots have excellent clearance.

http://www.theheadfl.com/pics/headers64.jpg
http://www.theheadfl.com/pics/headers65.jpg

 

ive seen a stock manifold car produce over 500 rwhp!

 

I am currently thinking of doing the MAC single cat conversion because...plenty of guys have some nice numbers being put out from these headers. $400, slp s-pipe 50: You can't beat that for a car that is going to be a daily driver bolt on only car like mine. Check out my mods in my sig and I think these headers will work perfectly for me and be much cheaper than Longtubes. This is just my preference beacause for those of us with a budget have to make the best of what we have. I am not going to spend $1000 or more when I will get gaskets and all for a little under $600.

As well, can somebody please explain to me why I need the headers coated that bad? Any difference is HP gains, I think not. My car runs at 175degrees or less so I don't have to worry about hot engine temps.

 

A few things: all headers come with bolts and gaskets. My Jet Hot longtubes probably came with the same stupid paper gaskets the MACs come with. They also came with the same crappy 3/4" bolts. You *could* use them, but the question is, how often do you want to be replacing gaskets and tightening bolts?

Another point: header coating is absolutely neccesary unless you want to melt every single wire in your engine bay. Your exhaust temps have NOTHING to do with your engine coolant temperatures. You are adding a header with no built in heat shielding versus factory manifolds which also adds a lot of surface area. If you think you don't need coating, wait till you see how expensive it is to replace the plug wires, starter wires, and other miscellaneous plastic type things under your engine bay. My buddy burned through a HARD brake line with his headers, and HIS WERE COATED. So again, no, this is not neccesary, but do so at your own risk.

 

Here is my cost breakdown for those of you debating them:

Longtube headers themselves: $500

Hooker Y Pipe Jet Hot Coated: $220

SCE Copper Gaskets (Optional): $40

Stage 8 Allen Head/Locking Header Bolts (Optional): $30

NGK Iridium Plug set (Optional): $40

Taylor Over The Valve Cover Wires (Optional): $100

OBD1 Conversion with Custom Tune from MadZ28.com (Optional): $220

So, if you just wanted the headers and Y pipe, hell, even skip the coating on the Y. You can get the Y uncoated from Thunder for $170. So say $670 for Longtubes and Y pipe and all the hardware. But heres the thing... you might want those options EVEN IF YOU WENT WITH THE MACs. There is no reason that I *had* to do those optional things. So if you want to compare apples to apples, do so. That is what I spent to do my header install RIGHT the first time around.