With the mods in my sig,(stock bottom end) the first time at the track a few weeks ago, It ran 119.4 MPH on the best run(all motor on a hot humid day).....and Brets cam is only in the low to mid 22X's @ 50....with a bigger cam choice (that I diddn't want since this is still a daily driver car) im sure it would pick up "at Least" a few more MPH in the quarter....I can't see how anyone wouldn't agree with that........this was with an untouched LT1 intake, and a stock 48MM throttle body also(Just changed to a 52mm last week).............Joe

 

I do ok....you know one of those slow heavy autos with 12 bolt..

Now on to reality, I have found that most people don't optimize there combos to make the big horse power....combo is where it's at...Having been through a lot of different head manufactures, I can also tell you the most hp jump for me has been with an optimized cam and a high compression bottom end. I really think were talking apples and oranges here...with the Lloyd vs. AI customers....In reality with a street drivin car, with a good cam, you might see 10 horse power with the best of one or the others heads....Will that show up on the track.... Who knows...(you would have to have the exact same car and swap heads and hope the DA number and track prep are the exact same....). I will also say that a lot of Lloyds customers don't seem to optimize there combo (tuning, gears, Big verter-if auto, suspension tuning, E-pump, full lenght headers, t-body, intake work, cut-out and so-on). It seems like more of the AI guys do, or atleast the ones that have....talk about it more... So, guys take it from someone that has been through...GTP, MTI, Pro Performance (or Peak Performance), Flow Technics and AFR(twice), there's not much difference in a good head vs. another good head (disclaimer...your average LT1...). It all has to do with the supporting mods...PERIOD

I'm actully moving on to Raised Runner, converted Single plane intake with mechanical roller cam, myself...Hoping for 550-600RWHP with small cam..

 

Yeah, me too. But it looks like it might.

 

I can tell exactly where(whom) you got the information in the first paragragh, and i'll bet hes even local to me and Bret, and he's a poor source, and a notorious story teller.

I think they(Bret and Joe) are both smart guys that go about things different ways, and thats expected. The only things that I don't like is ruining threads with **** slinging. I am all for a technical based argument thats how we all learn, but thats not whats going on here or any other thread that Joe O posts in.

There is a car that Bret has a hand in building that offered Joe O a race but i am not sure Joe has agreed. I saw it in a thread over on LS1tech. I also don't remember Bret specifically calling out Joe O or his car, I saw where Bret Openly offered a cam comparison against anybody, he was vague enough that he could have been offering to challenge God himself...and he didnt name names. Grease on the other hand asked if that included Ai and Joe O, and he(Bret) said sure he would compete against all.

 

I'll just rollover and say BRET IS THE KING!!! With people comparing cars today with cars 3 years ago with or without LE heads...You would think hopefully Loyd's heads have gotten better in that time..So maybe its not BRE's cams alone that produce these 30+ more ft lbs across the curve as its been said.... You would think however with a increase as claimed, that the times laid down by these cars would be not just now matching cars of the LE cams I done for loyd back then ..which were nothing trick ,but 3 cams I knew worked..And they did.Even with the boastfulness of smaller=more power etc.. I think most are aware I had a cam even smaller in a members car ( low 220's@.050) here..which made good power and ran extremely well way back then also...None the less innovation changes every year..New lobes are constantly released, valve springs revised etc. .... 11 anything for Loyd's packages back then was impressive for any cam head package ... But that was 2003 ..Its 2006!!!! I would think it would be a swarm of sub 11.5 cars by now.... Supporting mods as mentioned, have gotten better also. Stepped headers are available now for ex.
and trust me header/collector if the customer is willing to anny the ducks can produce some very good gains.... What I'm saying here is this... I would certainly hope Bret after trying so many different things would be able to match those three cams of old...because they were nothing special ,just a good design that I used at one time or another and knew worked , And the fact Bret had something to start with since he knew the exact spec's on all three when he took over.... I mean it was a package cam for a mass audience...Nothing trick ... So yeah when I see my name brought up in a comparo arena of 3 package cams I done long ago with no results but Bret's word and a dyno graph,,,And then self proclaims themselves as the BEST..I figure you would see alot more than tech info dropping and boasting... But thats just me and those were 3 package cams!!!
None the less people here need to really listen to what AG is posting and understand how long it takes to be as precise as hes noted...

Bret, you speak so much of ..I help, I share info.......... Thats fine ...but if it were about sharing and not a dollar...Then you would be giving out specs so they could grind thier own and save them some bucks ( which I have done many times)...But its not about that kind of sharing is it?? You've raped this site and now you have moved on to ls1tech doing the exact same thing as you do here...But just to let you know Ed Curtis recently got put on restriction for doing the very same thing...So take note, some people are not as blind as you would hope they would be to all this..Your agenda is to make money doing this and as such why you post as much info as you can,which alot of people on here doesnt even understand. .. The BEST doesn't have time to post in every tech thread or self advertise.. If it were about money to me, which it isnt. You surely wouldnt be getting calls because they couldnt get ahold to me or it takes to long.And you most likely wouldnt be grinding anything for Loyd right now. So Your welcome .... Happy sales!!!

So I bid the fellow cz28er's a goodbye on this thread... I'll be out soon with the LT1 one more time, it may be quicker who knows!!...

 

One thing is for sure- I'm never buying **** from Joe O or AI. This would be a great thread if the two of you would use the PM feature to talk to one another, and save us the time digging through the BS.

Loyd, I will be in touch with you.


Lock this thread, and remove all the post from Bret and Joe O. This will preserve the useful info.

 

What has AI said in this thread to deserve that????? I have not read every page but I don't think they got into this atall.

Had you said you would not buy from Bret or Joe I may not agree with your decision but would at least understand where it is coming from.

 

Thats right, sorry about that.

 

Guys,I keep trying to tell you that the world does not revolve around drag racing with these 4th Gen F bodies. Ok, both Lloyd and AI have great products. Pick one or the other for any reason. Joe, you have a great drag car that is keeping us LT engine types proud. Bret, knows his stuff on engines and camshaft selections. Just because say Bret has some great engines and cam and head combos out their doesn't mean they have to have some outrageous quick e.t.'s or mile per hour on a drag strip to have customer satisfaction. I am dealing with Bret on an engine combo. I wanted a guy that is confidant in his ability to provide me with a great product and has put out that kind of work. I do not want someone who is inconstant in his talk or work. My Z-28 will never be on a drag strip, street touring only. I had a drag car 30 years ago. Never again. As an older fellow ,I want a complete package, Huge power that is street drivable, fantastic braking, outstanding handling , and creature comforts. Joe ,I could not beat your car at a drag strip. However ,Joe you could not keep up with me in my domain on the Interstate and two lane roads. To each his own! E.T.'s and MPH is NOT THE ONLY SIGNS of CUSTOMER SATISFACTION! Bret Is great in working with each individual on what he wants and needs ,both performance and money wise. As in any racing, engine combo's are only part of the equation of track performance. Chassis set up,track surfaces ,and driver skills pay a huge part in the final numbers. Even in NASCAR, the best engine does not always win. It is the best handling car and pit crew and driver working together. So , everyone here has done a good job in one field or another and offers a great product. Lets work together and we all can gain from Teamwork.

 

Good point.

 

Anyone in this thread design F1 or Top Fuel cams?
Steve...

 

thats a jackass thing to say! AI has not even taken part in this **** talk thread must mean something? i mean i talked to both lloyd and AI and went with AI and cant be happier that doesnt mean im going to trash lloyd! grow up big guy! u complain about a senseless thread and then add you .02? jackass!

 

You should read all the posts, like the one where he corrected himself. He meant Joe O and Bret.

 

No way am I reading 15 pages of the same BS Ive heard 100 times already but if its a fast car you want then Ive never seen anything run as FAST as Joe or AI stuff. Now LE packages do seem to spin those dyno rollers a little harder so I guess pick your race be it on paper or on pavement.

OR just assume theres not enough room for the both of ya in this world which means a good old fashioned duel is in order.

 

The only way this debate is going to be settled is for somebody to perform a double blind experiment. How this works is you have one party that you designate as the "control group," (Ai or LE, flip a coin), and you assign a person who has no idea what the variables of the experiment are to observe the results of what takes place. You then get a second person and have them do the same thing with the other companies' heads. (Once again, Ai or LE, whichever didn't get picked in the coin toss.) Neither Ai or LE are to be informed in advance that there is any testing taking place, therefore eliminating as a variable the opportunity/possibility of "doctoring" up a special set of heads.

It is double blind because neither Ai or LE know their heads are being tested, and the people observing the dyno results don't know they're dealing with Ai or LE heads and therefore have no predetermined expectations. This eliminates bias. This of course would have to be orchestrated with the precision of a CIA operation, completely under the radar screen, and by one person who was willing to buy a set of heads from both companies. For the data to remain absolutely pure, the person conducting the experiment would have to somehow find a way to supply both blind observers with the same shortblock. The only way that we could eliminate deviation in the short block assembly as a variable was if the shortblock was supplied by a third party who had no prior knowledge of the other parameters in the experiment. You can see where this really begins to become complicated, relying too heavily on the "good faith" and "trust" of all parties involved.

Taking into account the number of people who would need to be involved in the network, even if the one masterminding it all was clever and resourceful enough to pull off an experiment this elaborate and produce completely unbiased and empirical data, one question would still remain: are you going to believe it?