A garden variety sheet of paper is 0.1mm thick. That calculates to 0.00393700787 inches.

From now on, we'll just refer to Lloyd as "The Surgeon."

 

A/G,
I certainly did not mean to be arrogant!!! But the fact remains ... A human can consistently replicate port for port...air speed for speed, with the correct experience and skill. This is done by MANY people...everyday. And yes... many of these same people size important parts of the cylinder head UNDER 3 thou difference.

I also love anything that makes my life easier...but to believe that a CNC machine automagically makes a human look like a monkey when it comes to repeatability....well, that is simply incredulous. there are way to many things going on that work against you..core shift being one, proper loading of cutter, cutter deflection, fixturing, cutter wear, spindle wear....and the list goes on and on!

Does this mean you are going to get a hand ported head, at this level...for a grand...No...you will not. Will you get a CNC ported head at this level for similar pricing...the answer..no matter how shocking...is NO. Many higher dollar CNC programs still can carry as much as .030 mismatch.

so the question...CNC or hand ported? The answer...to the consumer...It really doesn't matter one bit!

Dennis

 

You think wrong there junior. I read a translated copy of the report that the Honda F1 team issued a few years back on CNC vs Hand Port. First off the translation into to English for the copy was $8,000 (Thank God it wasn't my dime, LOL), secondly when this report was issued Honda spent in excess of $1,200,000 just on engine development for F1 that year. In short GREAT reading.
Honda took a few of their strongest running combo's and narrowed them down to the best. From there they went they went through the heads to the N'th degree. They figured they could digitize the best ports and just replicate them and supply all their teams with top notch heads. Wrong.
On the first outing they found their BIG dollar CNC mills could not replicate the hand ports. Honda then spent some SERIOUS $$$$ to have new tooling developed for the mills to replicate some of the intricacies in the port design.
Second & third outings they came closer, but no cigar.
Honda spent MANY hundreds of thousands of dollars to come to the conclusion that the CNC heads could not produce the same performance as the heads that were hand ported by the "Old Timers" in house.
Final solution... Honda learned that it pays to have their old school guys train the younger guys on head porting by hand if they want to remain a dominant force in racing.
Now does CNC have it's place? YES. On many castings a good CNC program can expedite the porting process by removing the bulk of the material that would take days to do by hand. Raw castings are an excellent example of this.
I have a set of SB2.2 R&D heads from Hendrick Motorsports for a build I'll be doing this year. On these heads you can see a few CNC cuts here & there where the bulk was removed, but these are HAND finished heads. I'll open them up more for my application.
I can go on for days about this stuff, but this poor guys thread has been hijacked enough.
AI or LE for heads... for street cars it really doesn't matter. 99% of the customers out there drop the ball on the overall combo anyway, there by negating the quality of the heads good or bad.
Steve...

 

FWIW, I hope you were drunk when you posted that. It's a DEEP ocean out there with many creatures in it.
Steve...

 

If I thought I was 2nd best Steve, I wouldn't be doing this. Either way I'm up for anything.

Bret

 

This is the funny thing, you sit on top of a ANT hill and preach LOOK WHAT I HAVE DONE, I'M BAD *** CAUSE I CAN MAKE A 680HP SBC. Dude you seriously need to get real, and realize that just cause you have a LT1 block in your car it doesn't make you special.... on that note you are far from "leading the way".... between this and the fact that you have a great ability to talk smack about anyone else pretty much gave you the respect or blatant lack there of from me.

Oh educate me oh wise one... maybe oneday you might share some of that info... the sad thing is that most of the time when you do say something about motors on here you are wrong, how about putting your foot in your mouth again about replicating head ports by hand, or god forbid you start talking about valvesprings. What I've found is the guys who keep the info secret are the ones that are insecure in the fact that someone will catch up with them. There is a GREAT quote on that which I really truely believe is the truth...

"I have always found that it is the insecure man that doesn't want to share. Darin Morgan, Joe mondello, Larry Meaux, Curtis Boggs, Larry Widmer, John Haskell and many others share because they are very secure in their knowledge and REALIZE THAT TEACHING OTHERS ONLY IMPROVES THEIR KNOWLEDGE." Keith Morganstein

I know you have the whole car setup thing down, but once you get between the flywheel and the injector you don't impress me at all.

Bret

 

So how about a race? Are you up for that? All you need to do is find but 1 of your many, many satisfied customers (since you don't like to run anything more than the keyboard), and get out to the track and show your results. I know it's alot harder than just saying your better, but I am sure some one with as wide a network of fast LT-1's as you do will have no problem rounding up a couple of firends to go racing. You know where the other thread is.
Well.... just in case it may have slipped your mind
http://web.camaross.com/forums/showthread.php?t=448220

 

well ihave a basic rebuilt lt1 w/ nothing but a 847 cam in it.. w/ 0 miles on it.. I'm in LI NY and the motor can be out of the car in 30 minutes.. If you guy's wanna use my motor as a test mule for this comparo then be my guest.. I even have the Stand alone to run the motor... I know of a dyno really local to me and im sure somthing could be worked out.... just a offer.. I'm not doing anything w/ this motor other than using it to hold my beer...

 

Way to step up to the plate man.

 

Screw it.. i wanna see this go down... and hey it's easy break in miles on it.. think they'll let me keep the winning set? lol..

 

Happy sales Bret, Share away .... lt1 is a hobby and nobody could care less whats under my hood at the local track or any heads up comp. LOL... the lil niche lt1 cam designer you are, so quick to be a hypocrit... this is too funny... yeah we did see the valve spring post ... umm was I wrong , per who?? Heads?? what post? this one?? lol am I wrong? per whom?

Fact!!! you are chasing someone thats ahead of you and has been ahead of you... maybe you can take all those dyno sheets and use them when you run out of toilet paper , Because thats about all they are worth. You can produce about as much false information as a flow bench if you want to......I've got your goals, go gettem master cam designer.. nothing else to say here...

AS I posted per the original topic...look at price look at what you get... but realize you are not going to get a handported head thats consistant or have a edge ...IN a week, 2 weeks or even a month... A CNC which is built off a master ( months of hand porting) will be the more consistant piece... that being said a CNC head , followed by additional handporting will yield the greatest results.... CNC doing the majority of the removal of material and the hand porter massaging areas to increase airflow/ airspeed even further... Headporter hence has less time removing material and more time making the head better... And for those that dont know the time it takes, head down to a local shop and ask if you can watch them for a day doing it by hand. Or watch even after they rough it in, how many times it goes on and off the flowbench just to get one port the way they want it...


Like I said Bret... its been a couple years.. When are you going to show us something more, than technical info you picked up off another forum..If you are better than whomever by all means Prove it, sharing info proves nothing...

 

Totaly agree with you Joe... I have had problems with what Brett has said on here many times just keeping quiet. He has got so many people brianwashed into thinking he is the CAM GOD!!! And Brett 630hp in a SBC... its 06 I thought that was a norm!

 

Good head porters don't try and increase the velocity in critical areas... wow scary point again.

BTW Joe thanks for bringing so much usefull information to the site, you've only made posts in this thread acting like a little girl over the last 3 months, you only have one post on your other name touting yourself and that's about it.

What happened with ole Eric? I though he was your hand porting buddy? Now you are all on the CNC train? One day you will just admit that you don't like me because I do cams for Lloyd now, and the guys make more power AND love how they act and drive. I doubt that's why you don't like it though, the sales that you don't have thru him probably hurt the racing funds more. I don't blame you for being pissed, but your the one that screwed that up for yourself in so many ways I can't imagine. As for cars... I'm not like you and Ai I don't have to go touting my latest and greatest project just so I'm known and people don't forget me.

Bret

 

630hp in a SBC ain't that hard, I have two of them that sit in the shop with Hyd rollers in them and enough idle vacuum to drive them around daily. The fact that a 1.75 hp per cube race motor doesn't impress me is because maybe if that was a daily driver it would, not a race motor.

If you have problems with what I say, go right ahead and say something, otherwise you aren't going to know why you are wrong.

Most of those guys that give me credit for my cams have actually drove one around FWIW.

Bret

 

All I can say is this, I was lucky enought to hang with bret personally and took a hand in my cam install. He def. know his **** and I think more to the point the proof is in the #'s that LT1 are putting out now adays. Up until semi recently not many people were cracking 400+ rwhp, especially in 355's still be it a hyd rollers.

My cam runs fine, WILL pass emissions, excellent driveablity, did 362 rwhp through a 383, 2500 stall, 3" steel DS, and Moser 12 bolt, be it a m6/10 bolt it would nearly eclipse 400.

Very satisfied