HellRZR, I'm pretty sure Titan only makes their gerotor pumps in cast aluminum for the sportsman pumps and 7075-T6 Billet aluminum for the Pro pumps, (if that was the question).


I think the pumps are worth the $425 bucks on any motor accept a stock bottom motor. Although the Gen 1 and 2 small block Chevy oiling system is very well designed and the stock oil pump is more than adequate for even high horsepower motors, I look at every chance to upgrade a stock part. The stock rockers are fine and reliable but I had the money to upgrade to T&D shaft rockers for a tiny bit more valve train stability. The stock timing set if quite fine and very quiet but I sprung for a Cloyes double roller for a bit more strength. $425 bucks for a non-cavitating low drag high volume gerotor oil pump is about the same money as a years worth of oil changes on the race car.

It's my opinion that the Titan gerotor in my LT1383 is a major reason that the main and rod bearing looked brand new at the 1 year inspection.

Back to the topic though, I do think that if one of these Titan gerotor pumps could fit in a stock oil pan and it was set at 100psi then the "HV pumps suck a pan dry" crowd would certainly be proven correct. (But only because of the high pressure allowing for the high volume).

Karl

 

Thanks Karl. So you are on here too. I emailed you a while ago this is Silas.

 

Yes Sir,

I'm one of the very few 4-door LT1 owners in a sea of fast 2-door LT1 owners.

This forum is where all the good engine tech is and good learning too.

Karl

 

Over the last couple of years, I have followed this debate with interest. I'm running a stock bottom end, stock head castings, stock oil pan and a Melling HV oil pump. My pressure never drops below about 40 at hot idle. Hot cruise is about 62 psi. Hot WOT is a little higher. A couple of months ago, I ran 14 quarter mile runs in a row just about as quick as I could get back and stage. Think hot laps. Immediately after that, I went across the parking lot and spent some quality time at the autocross course. Not once did I see a pressure drop. That is some background to something I've noticed and a question I have.

A while back I tried some Brodix heads on my car. I noticed then that the oil drainback holes are significantly smaller when compared to the openings in the stock head castings. I saw some AFR heads and noticed the same thing. In the aftermarket castings, the drainback holes in the heads are machined holes (maybe .25" or .1875" diameter, just estimating from memory) in the corners. In the stock castings the drainback holes are cast-in openings that are very large. Could the small drainback holes contribute to oil retention in the heads? Do those who have experienced problems with the pump sucking the pan dry also have aftermarket heads? Is there a correlation? I'm certainly no expert in engine oiling, but I noticed the difference in the castings and was just wondering.

 

WRT the above post, that's an interesting thought. Mine that done blew up had AFR heads. In any case, even if it's a rare event, it can be catastrophic. So, I will repeat for the umpteenth time - it is unwise to run a HV pump and a stock pan. Though yours may go for 100,000 miles with that combo, for all I know.

Rich

 

Your repeating is partially why I posted. I've been a little worried to tell the truth. The debate was just starting when I put rings and bearings on my engine. The builder who cleaned my block and checked it recommended the HV pump. He went so far as to tell me there was no way it would pump the pan dry. This is a guy who builds race engines and is quite respected around here so I took his word. He certainly knows more than I about engines. Since then, I've seen several knowledgeable people on this board recommend against my combination and others say it's OK. Having the offending pump already installed, and not wanting to go through the pain to replace it, I've monitored pressure carefully. So far, so good and the pump is not coming out until the engine does blow up or I get the itch to upgrade from stock displacement.

Thanks for responding Rich.

 

Yea 'bout 632" worth.

 

Karl,
I didn't state the aluminum thing to well It is the sportsman pump I was talking about not,the good/high priced one.

I think it is overkill when I can run a BB pump in a dirt track sprint car all season at 5 nights a week racing and have no trouble with it or my home built pan. They are too deep for one thing, in a sprint car.

If there were not any class rules the the next step for me after a stock style pump set up would be an external wet sump then a dry sump.

 

Just to clarify (at the risk of beating the proverbial dead horse): I have used the term "suck the pan dry" but it likely is not exactly what is happening. It's probably brief periods of oil starvation caused by some combination of more oil in the top of the motor due to the HV pump, marginal oil level, sustained high rpm use with cornering/braking/accelerating. I bet that there is good amount of oil in the pan but the oil control is not adequate under the circumstances. It does not take very long for major engine damage if oil pressure is low under high load/high rpm conditions. I now have a big, bright low oil pressure light (looks like a shift light) and coated bearings, FWIW.

I re-read the section in Lingnefelter's SBC book the other night. In essence, he says to use a STOCK pump that has been checked for proper clearance and a high pressure spring. I think he knew a bit about the SBC.

Rich

 

I think it is safe to say an SV or HV pump will work safely when either is set up correctly (all supporting hardware included). I don't think the opinion debate will ever end.

 

AhHA!! Excellent advice from a god of engine building John Lingenfelter.
More pressure = more oil flow past the bearings = longer engine life.
(even though more flow slightly increases the risk of pumping too much oil out of a stock pan at high rpm).

I'm beginning to have a hunch that the HV pump does have one flaw in that the gears being bigger than the SV pump migh add to the cavitating at high rpm. Or looked at another way, the smaller gears of the SV pump make it less prone to cavitating at high rpm and if the SV pump can muster up 70psi oil system pressure then that would be the prefered pump.

I think though on a "large" bearing clearanced motor that a SV pump won't give a nice comfy hot oil 20psi at 650rpm idle. So how about a HV pump with anti-cavitation grooves? nope....those grooves reduce low rpm oil pressure. Ahhh!! I can't win!!! Ok, tighter bearing clearances and a high pressure SV pump. I think it's actually cheaper in the long run to spend the good money on a gerotor pump. How about an LS7 dry sump gerotor oil pump system.

Karl Ellwein

 

Hey, I was just thinking about your blown engine and wondered, did the bearings show signs of cavitation?

 

That would be lumped into one BIG category. Hard to tell from cavitation or the oil pump broke off of the engine and fell in the pan.
It's all oil starvation related.

 

Still waiting on examples of the stock pump being insufficient.

There are enough of us making stupid power on stock high milage shortblocks that one should have some faith in that setup.

 

A LOT have blown um up too.
Well if someone said "jump off a cliff" would ya do it?
Never run one(stock pump) on anything but a stock build so I can't tell ya.
Don't figure 500FWHP is stupid.12/1400 out of a stock block is stupid HP. The General back in the '60's/70's was making real close to 500 out the factory and I am talking about as far back as '63. They didn't have run of the mill oil pumps with stiff springs on them either.They don't know anything either,huh.
I rest my case.
No sense changing what has worked for me for so long anyway.HV/BB and a pan.