The issue is how well any particular engine builder understands tolerances.

 

Care to explain?

Rich

 

One of his 383 is one of the examples I know of where sustained high rpms cornering helped a HV pump destroy a motor. Golen can build a decent shortblock but IMO is nowhere near the engine master many want to believe he is. Uses quality parts machined well but the combinations leave a lot to be desired, just ask those with his heads and cam on his strokers, truely SAD.


I do agree with rskrause as far as the issue being the stock pan in combination I think that a good point. The HV pump alone is not the problem it is the package and sometimes usage that are necessary to allow it to do damage. If the package is put together with the usage in mind a HV pump can absolutely be safe, for instance if you think you need more oil pumped wouldn't it make sense to give it more oil in the sump to be pumped? A 6 qt. pan is a 20% increase and should be cheap and easy.

 

http://www.socialresearchmethods.net/kb/causeeff.htm


It's pretty simple: cause & effect. Fortunately, there are scientific rules for establishing causes and effects, so it makes things somewhat easier. The above link gives a brief rundown of them.

We're in agreement about the HV pump being used in conjunction with stock oil pans. I brought up the issue of tolerances because there may be some who came away from this discussion thinking that HV oil pumps are bad period, mainly from Red Herring statements like this:

One of the rules about determining something as being a cause, is that you have to establish that it has internal validity. This meaning that all other variables that could be considered as possible causes that were related to that specific effect have been ruled out. Can we honestly say that there are absolutely zero other variables in an engine's oiling system, and/or conditions that the engine might see that might contribute to oil starvation? Can we then also rule out the possibility of oil starvation ever occuring in an engine with a stock oil pump? Can we even then rule out oil starvation as the cause of the failure to begin with?

I could continue postulating, but I think you get the idea. With the amount of variables happening in any given engine, (and the tolerances associated with them), it's a pretty far stretch for anyone to automatically equate the usage of a HV oil pump with engine death and have that line of reasoning hold water after having done no testing or in the least, knowing about the rest of the engine setup.

 

Let's say you and I share an engine. We argue over what oil pump to put on it. I have a standard volume pump (SV) and you have a HV pump. We agree on oil system pressure for our motor, (60psi street motor). We just cannot agree on the right oil pump, (SV or HV). I'm saying to you "your HV pump is going to suck our well baffled stock oil pan dry at high rpm". You say to me, "hey doofus, did you flunk heat transfer and fluid flow 101?" I say to you, "I'm gonna kick your butt!...." Ok, forget about our argument and that I just kicked your butt. After you recover we decide to buy time at an engine dyno to test. Here are the "theoretical" results with comments on what may cause variations to the results. Note that this is a theoretical experiment and has not been truly performed by me.


We put our 1 shared engine on a dyno and time how long it takes to suck dry a small shielded and baffled sump-within-a-sump oil pan. This pan was built special for the test so that we could have the oil pumps pump oil from an almost real world oil pan and also allow all the oil from the crank/rods/other places to return to the pan, (but not to our sump within the sump).

We crank the motor and go instantly to 4000rpm and 60psi oil pressure. My oil pan sump-within-a-sump is sucked dry in 10 seconds. Ha! Let's see yours get sucked dry in less time, (you have a HV pump). What? Yours is sucked dry in exactly 10 seconds. Damn! Dude you were right! I hate it when I'm wrong and youre right! I'm gonig to kick your azz anyway.

The reason your HV pump did not suck the sump-within-the-sump dry faster than my SV pump was the 60psi system pressure. 60psi only allows for "X" gpm oil flow. Your pump flowed "X" gpm at 60psi and my pump flowed the exact same "X" gpm and the rest of the oil returned to the sump-within-a-sump until it could be pumped again---or returned to the sump.

Well, in actuality your pump did suck the sump-within-a-sump dry a moment sooner than my SV pump but we were not able to click our stopwatches off with that great of accuracy. Turns out that when your HV pump was beginning to run out of oil supply the engine oil system pressure came down to under 60psi and since your HV pump was able to pump a tad more volume than my SV pump that helped it empty the sump-within-a-sump faster, (about 1 seconds for sake of argument).


What would change these results are if we ran the test by gonig slowly from idle rpm to 4000rpm full system pressure. From idle to 4000rpm your HV pump will be flowing more than my SV pump and so the sump would drain certainly quicker with the HV pump. But we flow the same at 60psi and that's the pressure we are at when dusting off Mustanks on the street and the strip and the road course.

Out on the street with a normal sump oil pan it's also possible that your HV pump cavitates more than the SV smaller gear stockish oil pump and your oil pressure begins to show whack-o readings at high rpm. (I'll tell you to get a better quality HV oil pump).

Oh, now you want to put a SV pump with 70psi spring in our engine!!! Now Hoe-dee-doe! You are certainly going to suck our stockish pan dry faster now with more flow at high rpm due to more system pressure. What did I just learn from you? .... I learned that pressure determines flow. More pressure = more flow. Now you want to get all 'old-school' and put a stock pump with high pressure spring on our motor! I'm certainly convinced that more pressure = more flow and more flow is better bearing cooling/protection. Let me put on a good oil pan before you go putting a high pressure pump on the engine. Heck yea let's do it and go kick some Mustank butt!

So my story is.........more pressure makes a pan go dry......not volume.
That is because more system pressure allows for more volume and thus quicker to suck the pan dry.

My engines get good pans and good HV pumps or Titan HV gerotor pumps.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it for a few days.

Karl Ellwein
Ellwein Engines 410-474-5579
http://www.karl-ellwein.org/EllweinEnginesHome.htm

 

Nicely said...

Ya can't have pressure without volume.


Have used HV or BB pumps on SBC/LT1 for a long time with NO problems.
I DO however use good pans.

 

I noticed the Impala SS guys using this pump. 365 bucks! Anyone if the F-crowd gone this route?

http://www.titanspeed.com/content/pump/

 

Unless ya are making over 1000FWHP it is overkill.
I have used them and they ARE a nice set up.

 

Well I'll be close to that mark but shy about 70-75hp.

 

Well 500.00 is cheaper than a 20,000 dollar engine. Don't get the one with the aluminum housing. I just don't trust them. When BBF break the OP housing in a 80+lb set up and they are iron, I don't see an aluminum housing making it.

 

I notice in the description for that pump that you can set the pressure between 50lbs.-100lbs. I've always been curious about what reasons/circumstances would dictate why you'd wanna go higher or lower on something like that?

 

On a BBF ya have to run 100+lbs out the back door or it won't live.
I have never run over 75lbs on a SBC/LT1 and 80lbs on a SBF making 1200+FWHP.
50psi would be about right for a healthy street engine

 

I just shot them a email so I'll give it a few days to hear back from them. What's BBF 1racerdude? Big Block Ford?

 

The amount of volume you need is a function of bearing clearances. Build it close, and you don't need a HV pump but could run into RPM issues. Build it loose and you'll need to pump a lot of oil to keep the pressures at the bearings. JMHO


Steve

 

On my new stroker 388 the shop that built it recommends 10-40w or 15-40w full syn after a 10-40w dino 500 break-in run. Wish I knew the clearances of the bearings but don't. HV55 w/ the purple spring is what's on there but haven't cranked it yet but he pulled a few dyno pulls before shipping it to me. Saw shavings in the pan as well but nothing too alarming. Waiting for my oil pan to return and then wire up the accusump and fire it up.

With oil weights he's recommended I'd think it was on the loose side.