They say the Ridgeline has a genuine frame too

People begged from the second the Camaro was cancelled for a new one. There were pretitions, websites, shows....you know that. Now please point me in the direction of the El Camino guys that are doing this?

Because you are old enough to think of them as cool and have old kids that either drive, or will be soon?

Building cars is about making what people want. Show me the people chomping at the bit for a new El Camino?

You can't put anything inside it it. Once again, less than 5% if truck sales are standard cab. People need some interior room beyond the front seats.

Did you not reat a thing I wrote and launch into you rant. As I said before...the El Camino is not replacing the Family SUV/Truck, or the family sedan. If you think it is...you are the one dropped on your head. That makes it a car for childless couples, single males, or the family third "fun" car. It will LOOSE in this segment because there are other much more compelling choices. Unless you have some 20 year old hard on for an El Camino, there is no way you pass up a Camaro, GTO, G8, RWD Impala, or whaever else comes out GM's tool box for one of these.

You are missing the point completely and your argument is convoluted. On one hand you say the UTE has awesome utility, and that will sell to people. That is really not true because you will make several compormises owning one.

You can call it a utility, but you can't put anything inside the car, including more than one other human. You can but a hard bed cover on it, and have lockable storage, but that limits what you can haul. Your not gonna fit a dresser in with that bed cover on. Sure you can take it off, but that takes two people...plus you will have to come back and get the bed cover. Bed covers suck, which is why you see them on very few REAL trucks. You end up making a lot of compromises owning a UTE/El Camino.

The Camaro on the other hand is not about utility at all. It is an emotional car that people buy with their heart (and other organ), not their brain. It does not matter that the back seat sucks because well...it's a Camaro. That being said, in a pinch, you can force two more people in the back of a Camaro, which means a lot.

While I think you are emotionally attached to an El Camino, I don't think you realize that very few other people are. People will let a lot of stuff slide to own a Camaro or Corvette because it is something they have wanted forever. The number of people who feel that way about the UTE/El Camino is very small, so it really will have a tough time selling on the emotion card.


So your saying that you would buy an El Camino over a new Camaro or GTO? I wonder how many people feel the same? I suspect most people already own a truck or SUV, and there is very little draw to the idea of having a truck bed on their sports car.

Got you all hot and bothered, hufh Guy

 

Your married...you know that does not fly

Again...the inconvience of having to think through which vehicle you can drive which day. What happens when mom has an unplanned meeting and Johnny has to ride to soccer practice stowed under the bed cover in the El camino?

Not many...less than 5% last I saw. Buy this methodology, people still by station wagons and vinyl tops.

Again, not many...and those cars are cool. The El camino makes me think of teh rusty car grandpa used to drive to the liquor store.

I understand the El Camino will not sell more than maybe 10,000 units a year. Still, Holden has way cooler, and more usable things in the pipline I would love to see here before this, like an AWD wagon, and a new GTO.

It may cost almost no money to bring this here...then again...it would not cost that much money to make say a new Camaro based Firebird either. Does not mean either is the right thing to do.


Your points are weak and getting weaker, my friend. [/QUOTE]

 

Enthusiasts don't make a good business case for a car. It didn't bring back the Camaro, so why should the "lack" of enthusiasts be used to make a business case NOT to bring it here. However, I think there are more enthusiasts than you know.

Show me people chomping at the bit for a Camry or Accord. People do not have to be enthusiasts or in love with a car to buy one.

There is 7.5+ cubic feet behind the seats. Not much, but enough. You could also use the passenger seat.

Also, 5% of 800,000 (approximate annual sales of Silverado and Sierra) is 40,000. The El Camino would probably be profitable at 1/10th of that.

Who says it has WIN in these segments? Define "win". In order to be successful, it only has to be profitable, which the ute can do at very low volumes.


I think you are the one missing the point. Some people like variety and choices. GM could sell just one minivan - this would take care of those people that need to haul people and one pickup - this would take care of the people who need to haul cargo. But, this would be pretty boring.

Everything in life is a compromise. If you buy a sedan, you compromise because you won't be able to haul anything. If you buy a truck, you compromise because you lose fuel economy, ride quality, and possibly passenger space. If you buy an SUV, you lose fuel economy and some hauling capabilities. The Ute/EL Camino is just another compromise.

Like I said before, emotion or enthusiasm for a model does not make a business case.

Some people would. Some people that may be shopping for a pickup would buy an El Camino instead. Some people looking at a 2 seat sports car might buy one instead. Some people looking at a minivan might buy one instead!!

 

Blah...I have no where near the motivation to continue arguing this. I expect to a UTE in the sig of every leg humper as soon as the thing comes stateside.

 

Guion, you should write an article as counterpoint to Branden's article on GMI.

 

It's simple: Would you rather drive a Ute or a Colorado?

No contest in my book.

 

I just went over there and read it. I'm itching to write a long rebutal editorial. Just need to find the time to do it and compile supporting links to back it up.

Even when I'm obviously right, I like slam dunk cases.

 

But would you take a Ridgeline around Laguna Seca?

There are people here who begged for a Camaro that beats a Corvette too.

When El Camino was killed off, there WERE in fact people who "begged" for GM for it's return. There were at least 2 El Camino type Chevy concepts, one a styling exercise that made the showcar circuits, and another based on the Chevrolet Caprice.

Big difference is... time. The longer time El Camino's been gone has silenced alot of enthusiasts.

Another point is that Camaro isn't returning simply because of enthuisasts demands. Camaro is returning because GM figured out a way to make money on it even if the coupe market goes sour. The Ute is coming because GM sees a market for it, and will make money on it regardless as to how it sells.

No. Because I actually live in a state where they are still actually both popular and cool. California.

....or chomping at the bit for a new Malibu.... or a new Impala.... or a new Ford F-100.

Again, you're making the huge tactical error of using huge demand and high volume to argue a point that can't be argued. There's less than 20K Miatas sold each year. GM sold only 6272 Z06 Corvettes last year, and only 11,000 convetibles. Are these cars that people want? Are there people chomping at the bit for these cars? By production numbers or percentage of sales, certainly not.

BUT..... are these vehicles successful because they make money, are they successful because owners love them? Yep.

Put into it like what? Bags? There's room inside behind the seats.
To recline? You aren't going to lay flat like you would in a sedan, but then again, you'd buy a sedan if you needed that much room.

Again, you're making a case against a large number of popular cars.

Plus, you're forgetting about what perhaps is the largest trunk space of any 2 seater.

As pointed out, 5% of a vehicle that sells at least 700,000 per year is still 35,000. But, you're also leaving out that 5% is regular cab, short bed. There's 3 different cabs, and something like 3 to 4 different lengths. There were 93k Colorados sold last year. Again, at least 30,000 were sold in 2 door form.

El Camino sales bounced generally in the 30-40K range annually till it exploded in the 70s, shooting to a high of 65K by 1973. Throughout the 80s, sales settled in at over 20K annually till GM stopped US sales before the end of the '87 model year run.


That's like saying "Unless you have a 20 year old hardon for a Camaro, you aren't going to pass up a GTO, G8, RWD Impala, or whaever else comes out GM's tool box for one of these."


No..... you said that it had no utility, and I countered.

I also said it's not going to appeal to everyone.....you seem to be indicating that it needs to sell in large quanities.

But not nearly as much as you'd do with a regular pickup if you prefer cars.

BINGO!!
and the rest of your point....

Although I wouldn't call it emotions because anyone who gets all crying emotional over a car probally needed to be breastfed more as a kid, but I would call it a purchase of desire. You want that car because it appeals to something. If you really need a back seat, you aren't going to buy a Camaro. Nor are you going to buy a Ute. But, none the less, it's still a purchase of desire, & rear seats aren't your number one concern.... plus there's the added practicality of a bed.

In a pinch, I can put put a dresser or throw some bxes in the back, which means alot...in a Ute.


It's obvious that you personally hate the El Camino, Branden. You feel if someone wants something with a bed, they should get a pickup truck. If they want a car, they should buy a car. If they need both, they should buy both.

You're also saying that a vehicle needs fanatics to justify it (using Camaro & Corvette as examples), Yet on the same post you flip & seem to be brushing off anyone who actually wants a Ute as having a "20 year hardon for an El Camino".... among other colorful things.

My goodness, no! You didn't get me hot & bothered. Takes alot more than that!

The only reason I'm being so active in this discussion is that I know that certain GM decision makers come in occasionally and read things posted here. Whenever someone makes a negative statement on the subject, I feel the need to get involved in the conversation. I'm going to be a customer if the price is right (meaning V8 power for no more than Impala SS or GXP Grand Prixs), & it comes in a manual.

No... I'm not as you might colorfully say a "El Camino nut hugger". My cousin had an nice '65 El Camino when I was a kid, but I never had any particular attraction to them otherwise.

I shruged when GM moved production to Mexico, and then killed it altogether (I was into Mustangs at the time). I saw the 2 concepts of the 90s with not more than a "that's pretty cool" thought before moving on.

But a funny thing happened over the years.

I moved from San Francisco to San Diego to Hunington Beach to Monterey back to San Francisco. I moved my son to to Tolleseon. I went on numerous parts runs in the military, and prefered to use my Camaro instead of wasting time going to transport and waiting my turn for a vehicle.

I've moved from living mostly in suburbs or bases where parking multiple vehicles wasn't an issue, to a city where if you have 1 dependable parking space you call yourself lucky (and still need to budget for inevitable monthly parking tickets).

I managed a nightclub and a major resturant. I frequently make store runs to pick up cases of everything from copy paper to lettuce to wines and liquors. Every so often, I move items to storage, while at the same time move new items into the apartment. I live in a city where the wife takes the bus to work and I need to drive nearly 40 miles each way to my own work. Alot of my friends surf, and naturally I've thought about it. I have used the back seat of my car for passengers exactly 5 times this entire year. Local (San Francisco) carpool lanes require 3 people unless your car's a 2 seater.

I haven't lost my demands for a perfomance rear wheel drive car, nor my distain for trucks. My fuel budget doesn't allow me an easily affordable used Ford Lightning, an SRT8 Ram while intriguing, is way too big for the city & does more damage to my fuel budget than the Lightning would. I like to get it on in twisties, and whenever there's the opportunity on a track, so trucks are out anyway.

So.... no, I'm not an El Camino nuthugger, have a 20 year old hardon for an El Camino, an El Camino fanatic, or anything like you've been describing.

I could actually USE an Holden Ute. For my lifestyle, this would be the perfect all round vehicle.

 

Just in case you missed this:

From http://www.carpoint.com.au/car-review/2806297.aspx

VE Ute or another GTO?
Online forum GM Inside News is currently running a poll of its readers for their opinion on the following question: Do you think the Ute would be a failure in the US?

That's 'our' VE Holden Ute being polled. With all the reporting of the Ute as an export prospect in the American market, it has become -- depending on the point of view -- a cause celebre or a total irrelevance.

As of midday September 14, 276 respondents had ventured their opinion. 29.71 per cent agreed that the Ute would be a failure in the US. 54.71 per cent disagreed that the Ute would be a failure and 15.58 per cent didn't know.

Arguments against include: the Ute has a low payload capacity and reduced passenger-carrying ability (compared with a crew cab), the style is neither 'fish nor fowl', Holden should be concentrating on a Commodore wagon or new Monaro for the US and car-derived utilities represent an idea that has seen its day.

Arguments in favour include: genuine sporting car dynamics with occasional load-carrying ability, flashy style, reasonable fuel economy, low cost of development/production and marketing.

So what does this mean for Holden? Based on the GTO's sales, the on-line community was close to the mark, although the GTO was misunderstood on both sides of the Pacific.

More recently, the Internet community has readily welcomed the G8, so the Holden-built Pontiac is shaping up to be a success for GM.

That leaves the Ute. Even with better than half of all poll respondents giving it a thumbs-up, that won't necessarily translate into sales. Then again, no one can even agree what threshold of annual sales the Ute in America would have to cross before being considered a success.

Some have suggested the Ute could be 'profitable' for as few as 5000 units a year -- given the negligible development costs, 'word of mouth' marketing, the GST-free pricing for export products from Australia and the Free Trade Agreement with the US.

Others have suggested that the Ute would have to sell in numbers as high as 15,000 to 20,000 just to win back the cost of marketing and advertising in the US.

That must be counted along with the currency exchange rate between the two countries and the fact that the Ute would have to be priced lower than the GTO.

Those sales numbers are higher than the Monaro/GTO ever achieved in America, but the Ute should be priced significantly lower too.

Will the Ute be a success? Based on the poll, it's looking like a close-run thing, but of course, this is the Internet -- and any correlation with real life is purely coincidental.

 

Keep in mind that GMI has a strong Aussie reader base which that article mobilized I would not call it a fair same. Matter of fact...it was the Austrailian moderator who wanted to add the poll.

I am done arguing this....let's see the thing get over here, and take it from there. Everyone said the GTO was a can't miss home run...but in the end..it had too many compromises to meet original projections.

It looks like guy has a thing for a new El Camino....never seen him so passionate before...

 

He isn't alone.

 

But why are you so passionate AGAINST it?

That's like protesting Kelloggs coming out with a new cereal, or NBC producing a new talk show, or Sylvania releasing a new light bulb, or Lazyboy releasing a new recliner, or Levis making a new style of jeans, or... If you don't like it, don't buy it!

 

B/c Brandon loved his 'vagina blue' Equinox so much he will never buy another car!

 

I am not a truck person, at all. But if you gave me the choice between a ute and a colorado with an extended/crew cab and the same V8 engine as in the ute... no contest, i'll take 4 seats please.

As a single 30yo man, my primary use for a ute/pu would be to go tailgating at sporting events and stuff like camping trips. Being able to carry a full complement of passengers is just as important as fitting a grille and some coolers.

 

Well, there's the difference between us. I'm sick to death of 4-door anythings dominating to the point of excluding 2-door vehicles which appeal to me. Having 4-doors available is just fine, but making them the only choice just plain sucks.