Why is the Ute not being called the Chevy El Camino? Consider this.....
09-01-2007, 01:52 PM
#61
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Forget it Charlie.... note how the planets are aligned because Branden and I are directly opposite for the 1st time in memory! 
Sir, my counterpoints:
1. Yes, people have trucks and SUVs that are used as family vehicles. People also have sedans that are used for family vehicles. 20-30 years ago, most all performance and handling was focused on coupes. Now you can find them on sedans. The FWD GXP Grand Prix is a great example. The point you make can also be used against producing coupes today.
2. Saying that someone would replace their Pickup truck or SUV with a Ute is like saying someone will replace their Grand Prix with a Solstice. Sure, it's not going to happen, but that's far from the point.
3. You are correct in that 2 seat cars tend not to sell in great numbers don't sell in high numbers. But why is that?? Corvette is well over $40K. Miata is barely bigger than a go-kart. Solstice and Sky have trunk capacity barely bigger than a single basin kitchen sink. Every example you can pull up has at least 2 of these 3 common threads: high style, high price, limited use. They flash, then peter out. But one can't say there's limited use to a Ute. Perhaps the biggest trunk and utility (hence the nickname-come-official-title: Ute).
Here, you inadvertently make the case for the Ute. Here's how.
First, why would I go out and buy a hitch, bolt it onto the chassis of my GTO (which will among other things, destroy it's resale value) and go out and buy a trailer to attach to my GTO of all things??
Second, since you acknowledge that the GTO is fine "[i]...as long as you're not hauling alot of luggage or heavy duty shopping, you also must acknowledge that this is something the Ute excels in.
Third, you say your GTO is your fun car AND you have a truck to take to Best Buy to pick up a TV or whatever. The Ute is both rolled into one for those of us who don't have 2 car garages or refuse to pay twice the insurence and registration (let alone 2 purchase prices) if something comes along that handles both in one vehicle.
Most families do seem to own a pickup truck or SUV along with a sedan. No, they are unlikely to trade either one for an El Camino. They are also unlikely trade either one for a Mustang. Nor, are they likely to trade it for a Solstice or Sky. Nore are they likely to trade it for a Camaro. Nor are they likely to trade it for any other dozens of types of vehicles on the market today. So where's the key point in all of this???
Should manufacturers simply make only 4 door sedans, trucks, and SUV's?? Should they simply stop making 2 passenger sports cars like the Corvette, Miata, and the Kappa twins simply because you can't get Families to trade in their Tahoes and Grand Prixs on one?
This isn't an issue of diverting General Motors' resources or losing development dollars, or expending capita on setting up an assembly line, or even taking time to do a market study or trying to figure out demographics. This is a simple case of a Holden Commodore Ute that is fully designed and engineered to meet all US automotive standards IS already going into production. Any alterations needed has already been done via the G8. So essentially, all that has to be done is put on a new nose or simply a badge on the LHD version, and load it on a boat.
You aren't seriously advocating a Ridgeline over a Comodore Ute are you? 
Same point can be made about the far less useful Camaro.
You'd be the last person on the planet who I'd believe would take that track, being the general automotive enthusiast I know you are. You're getting old there fellow.
Camaro (and Mustang) are the least practical types of cars on the road that hold more than 2 people. They are cramped inside. They are far too big outside. You can't carry more than 4 people comfortably in them (let alone get all of them in without a slight lapse of dignity if they are crawling into the back seat), they have extremely limited cargo space. Insurence on them is murder for many, especially if you're under 25. But Mustang is extremely popular. Camaro is very likely to be popular as well. Challenger too.
Why?
Styling, individuality, and general enjoyment.
Most Mustang buyers are not Mustang enthusiast. they are people who simply like the car. That's the mistake the 4th gen Camaro made. It focused on just the enthusiasts, but forgot it's the general buying public who pay the bills.
You seemingly make the assumption that ONLY the El Camino community would be intrested in a Ute. You also (more clearly and directly) make the assumption that people need to trade in their sedans, pickup trucks, and SUVs for a Ute in order for it to even be on the marketplace. There are so many vehicles on the market that do well without fitting this definition that finding evidence to refute this assumption is as hard as finding ants at a picknic.
Creating the Ute probally cost less than the redesigned nose on the 2006 Monte Carlo. The vehicles is fully compliant with US standards. It's already in production. If GM makes the money back from the boat trip over here, they make a profit regardless as to how many sell.
The whole operation is akin to selling the left over meatloaf you made tonight to the guy next door who's stuck living in a house with a bunch of vegetarians.
Branden, you're begining to sound like one of those vegetarians the guy has to live with.
You're very likely to get your wish. 
What you are missing is most people already have a truck or SUV and use it as a family vehicle...which was not the case 20-30 years ago. Back then, the El Camino had a place because trucks rode like crap and were basically used for work. Now is much different. Most families have some kind of Truck/SUV as the main family hauler, a 4 door sedan, and if they are well off, maybe a third fun car. I can't see anyone in their right mind replacing either of the three mentioned above with a UTE like vehicle unless they were attached to the El Camino's history. 2 seat coupes never sell in decent numbers unless they are named Corvette. Even the Corvette only sells 30K units a year.
1. Yes, people have trucks and SUVs that are used as family vehicles. People also have sedans that are used for family vehicles. 20-30 years ago, most all performance and handling was focused on coupes. Now you can find them on sedans. The FWD GXP Grand Prix is a great example. The point you make can also be used against producing coupes today.
2. Saying that someone would replace their Pickup truck or SUV with a Ute is like saying someone will replace their Grand Prix with a Solstice. Sure, it's not going to happen, but that's far from the point.
3. You are correct in that 2 seat cars tend not to sell in great numbers don't sell in high numbers. But why is that?? Corvette is well over $40K. Miata is barely bigger than a go-kart. Solstice and Sky have trunk capacity barely bigger than a single basin kitchen sink. Every example you can pull up has at least 2 of these 3 common threads: high style, high price, limited use. They flash, then peter out. But one can't say there's limited use to a Ute. Perhaps the biggest trunk and utility (hence the nickname-come-official-title: Ute).
You can attach a trailor to a GTO also. The turnk in the GTO fine as long as your not hauling a lot of luggage, or a heavy duty shopping. But it is also my fun spory car...I have a truck I take to best buy to buy a TV or whatever.
First, why would I go out and buy a hitch, bolt it onto the chassis of my GTO (which will among other things, destroy it's resale value) and go out and buy a trailer to attach to my GTO of all things??
Second, since you acknowledge that the GTO is fine "[i]...as long as you're not hauling alot of luggage or heavy duty shopping, you also must acknowledge that this is something the Ute excels in.
Third, you say your GTO is your fun car AND you have a truck to take to Best Buy to pick up a TV or whatever. The Ute is both rolled into one for those of us who don't have 2 car garages or refuse to pay twice the insurence and registration (let alone 2 purchase prices) if something comes along that handles both in one vehicle.
As I said before, Most families I know own an SUV/truck, and 4 door sedan. I do not see either being replaced with an El Camino..it just does not make sense to most families. If you already ahve a truck...and wanta sporty car as a second car...you will buy a G8 in the same showroom.
Should manufacturers simply make only 4 door sedans, trucks, and SUV's?? Should they simply stop making 2 passenger sports cars like the Corvette, Miata, and the Kappa twins simply because you can't get Families to trade in their Tahoes and Grand Prixs on one?
This isn't an issue of diverting General Motors' resources or losing development dollars, or expending capita on setting up an assembly line, or even taking time to do a market study or trying to figure out demographics. This is a simple case of a Holden Commodore Ute that is fully designed and engineered to meet all US automotive standards IS already going into production. Any alterations needed has already been done via the G8. So essentially, all that has to be done is put on a new nose or simply a badge on the LHD version, and load it on a boat.
I would love to see an ATV in a Ute....especially if it looks anything like a Ridgeline with one. I am sure it can be done but it is not pleasent.
I am sure there are El Camino enthusiasts out there who love the idea and will preorder one at $7K over sticker. The GTO had the same thing on a larger scale. That being said, after the enthusiasts make their purchases based on emotions, this thing has to stand on it's desirability and usefulness...which I think will doom it. I will go on record as saying that the UTE will fail in America on a greater level than the GTO.
GM will be hard pressed to find people who will turn down a Camaro, G8, GTO (maybe), rwd Impala for an El Camino. I am really hard pressed to believe that the El Camino community is so big and hard core that they will bash GM for putting a Chevy nose on the UTE. I really can't think of anything specific to the El Camino that the UTE does not have design wise. Also, if you don't name it El Camino and loose the heritage card it will sell even less.
Camaro (and Mustang) are the least practical types of cars on the road that hold more than 2 people. They are cramped inside. They are far too big outside. You can't carry more than 4 people comfortably in them (let alone get all of them in without a slight lapse of dignity if they are crawling into the back seat), they have extremely limited cargo space. Insurence on them is murder for many, especially if you're under 25. But Mustang is extremely popular. Camaro is very likely to be popular as well. Challenger too.
Why?
Styling, individuality, and general enjoyment.
Most Mustang buyers are not Mustang enthusiast. they are people who simply like the car. That's the mistake the 4th gen Camaro made. It focused on just the enthusiasts, but forgot it's the general buying public who pay the bills.
You seemingly make the assumption that ONLY the El Camino community would be intrested in a Ute. You also (more clearly and directly) make the assumption that people need to trade in their sedans, pickup trucks, and SUVs for a Ute in order for it to even be on the marketplace. There are so many vehicles on the market that do well without fitting this definition that finding evidence to refute this assumption is as hard as finding ants at a picknic.
Creating the Ute probally cost less than the redesigned nose on the 2006 Monte Carlo. The vehicles is fully compliant with US standards. It's already in production. If GM makes the money back from the boat trip over here, they make a profit regardless as to how many sell.
The whole operation is akin to selling the left over meatloaf you made tonight to the guy next door who's stuck living in a house with a bunch of vegetarians.
Branden, you're begining to sound like one of those vegetarians the guy has to live with.
I would like a Wagon G8 though
Last edited by guionM; 09-01-2007 at 01:56 PM.
09-01-2007, 02:15 PM
#62
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There's also the matter of scale. Avalanche sells 100K/yr IIRC, while a Ute would probably be considered a good success if it sold in the 10K-20K range.
Even though I wouldn't consider buying one, its a nearly free way for GM to diversify their line up and put a unique product on the market; one that would attract conquest customers. I don't see how anyone could be opposed to that.
Even though I wouldn't consider buying one, its a nearly free way for GM to diversify their line up and put a unique product on the market; one that would attract conquest customers. I don't see how anyone could be opposed to that.
09-01-2007, 02:48 PM
#63
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There's also the matter of scale. Avalanche sells 100K/yr IIRC, while a Ute would probably be considered a good success if it sold in the 10K-20K range.
Even though I wouldn't consider buying one, its a nearly free way for GM to diversify their line up and put a unique product on the market; one that would attract conquest customers. I don't see how anyone could be opposed to that.
Even though I wouldn't consider buying one, its a nearly free way for GM to diversify their line up and put a unique product on the market; one that would attract conquest customers. I don't see how anyone could be opposed to that.
09-01-2007, 03:17 PM
#64
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09-01-2007, 04:01 PM
#65
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I think a wagon or coupe would be more desireable than the UTE. The UTE is gonna fall in the the "cool third vehicle catagory". Because of that it is going up against Camaro, Possibly the new GTO, and maybe even Corvette (a $15K price difference is not make or break for a lot of people who carry three car payments). I don't see the UTE getting chosen over many of those.
There's also the matter of scale. Avalanche sells 100K/yr IIRC, while a Ute would probably be considered a good success if it sold in the 10K-20K range.
Even though I wouldn't consider buying one, its a nearly free way for GM to diversify their line up and put a unique product on the market; one that would attract conquest customers. I don't see how anyone could be opposed to that.
Even though I wouldn't consider buying one, its a nearly free way for GM to diversify their line up and put a unique product on the market; one that would attract conquest customers. I don't see how anyone could be opposed to that.
Last edited by formula79; 09-01-2007 at 04:07 PM.
09-01-2007, 04:03 PM
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09-01-2007, 09:14 PM
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09-02-2007, 01:11 AM
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How do you not agree with that assumption? Not many families are gonna go for a two seater as a second car. What happens when mom is late from work with the family sedan/SUV, and dad has to take the kids somewherein the El Camino? It will end up the a third vehicle..much like the GTO did.
09-02-2007, 02:12 AM
#70
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Well, considering that my wife and I don't have kids, it would be a great second vehicle for me to replace my truck. It should get better gas mileage, ride better, handle better, be easier to park, and will handle 95% of my trucking needs. My truck seems to struggle with towing my car since the trailered car weighed more than the truck. I could then pick up an older tow rig. I might be close to the typical truck owner. I've used the hitch 3 times in the year and a half that I've owned it.
09-02-2007, 07:54 AM
#71
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How do you not agree with that assumption? Not many families are gonna go for a two seater as a second car. What happens when mom is late from work with the family sedan/SUV, and dad has to take the kids somewherein the El Camino? It will end up the a third vehicle..much like the GTO did.
Also, there are families with stay-at-home moms, so your situation wouldn't apply. Or, if that situation comes up, mom and dad can switch vehicles.
Furthermore, there are tons of single men that can only afford 1 vehicle. They want something that is fun to drive, but has some practicality.
09-02-2007, 02:09 PM
#72
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Creating the Ute probally cost less than the redesigned nose on the 2006 Monte Carlo. The vehicles is fully compliant with US standards. It's already in production. If GM makes the money back from the boat trip over here, they make a profit regardless as to how many sell.
09-05-2007, 10:57 AM
#73
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It has a genuine frame aft of the passenger compartment, for starters.
Basically, a similar "only" cogent business justification is giving us a Camaro, so "What's good for the goose...." 
Gotta disagree with you because I'm old enough to remember when El Caminos were commonplace, I've seen how their used in Australia, and I suspect I'm the bullseye on the targeted demographics.
I honestly can't believe how hypocritical some of the opinons are here. To be honest, I'm begining to find many downright stupid.
Why?
1. Hauling capacity keeps coming up. No, it won't outpull a Cummins Ram, and it won't offroad like a Z71. Neither does an Impala or an Equinox.
2. Hauling families keeps coming up. "Hello? McFly??" I don't know how many people around here were frequently dropped on their head by their parents, but IMHO it's pretty dumb being on a Camaro website and slamming something based on a practicality yardstick that includes large SUVs and sedans. I haven't seen anyone piling a family into a Mustang (let alone a Camaro, Corvette, Solstice, Sky, Viper, or even a Focus or Cobalt).
3. The practicality issue keeps coming up. The thing has a cargo bed in the back. The thing has a mini frame to carry far more weight than the car versions can. I haven't heard of anyone carrying a dresser in a Camaro. Exactly how much can a Camaro tow behind it? If there's anything that's impractical, it's a Camaro. Yet, if anyone at GM decided to pull the plug on the 5th gen and stated that they felt the new Impala sedan would fulfill all the performance requirements of the Camaro, and be more practical, the very same group of you attempting to use that logic on the Ute would lose your frigging minds, and write GM very nasty e-mails or jump off bridges.
Once again, the Ute is no more likely to carry a family than any other small performance vehicle. It's a vehicle that is an all-in-one car. No, you aren't going to sell hundreds of thousands per year, Einstein. Only a utter moron would even bring up that you can't get your family in it (Duh!...it has 2 seats
). Unless you frequently stuck forks in your eyes as a kid, you see it has a bed, and therefore can carry stuff that is considerably bigger than you can in your car, so it IS practical. Finally, not everyone wants to have to go out and buy both a pickup and a car.
For someone like me, who loves to drive, occasionally needs to go pick up a couple cases of vegetables, or liquor, or beer for the day job, makes the occasional run to Office Depo for office goodies, or haul the occasional copier or fax machine in for repairs, or picks up this or that piece of funiture for the significant other or one of our friends, yet still enjoys getaways down the winding Pacific Coast highway (usually a bit above the speed limit) to Santa Barbera, or enjoys once in a while getting it on at Sears Point, or once a year has the opportunity to take a lap at Laguna Seca, and once in awhile goes to a place where there's valet parking, and makes trips to various car shows and gatherings in both Northern and Southern California..... while not having a 2 car garage, and not looking to waste money on 2 or 3 vehicles when 1 will do.... the Ute is perfect.
How do you not agree with that assumption? Not many families are gonna go for a two seater as a second car. What happens when mom is late from work with the family sedan/SUV, and dad has to take the kids somewherein the El Camino? It will end up the a third vehicle..much like the GTO did.
I honestly can't believe how hypocritical some of the opinons are here. To be honest, I'm begining to find many downright stupid.
Why?
1. Hauling capacity keeps coming up. No, it won't outpull a Cummins Ram, and it won't offroad like a Z71. Neither does an Impala or an Equinox.
2. Hauling families keeps coming up. "Hello? McFly??" I don't know how many people around here were frequently dropped on their head by their parents, but IMHO it's pretty dumb being on a Camaro website and slamming something based on a practicality yardstick that includes large SUVs and sedans. I haven't seen anyone piling a family into a Mustang (let alone a Camaro, Corvette, Solstice, Sky, Viper, or even a Focus or Cobalt).
3. The practicality issue keeps coming up. The thing has a cargo bed in the back. The thing has a mini frame to carry far more weight than the car versions can. I haven't heard of anyone carrying a dresser in a Camaro. Exactly how much can a Camaro tow behind it? If there's anything that's impractical, it's a Camaro. Yet, if anyone at GM decided to pull the plug on the 5th gen and stated that they felt the new Impala sedan would fulfill all the performance requirements of the Camaro, and be more practical, the very same group of you attempting to use that logic on the Ute would lose your frigging minds, and write GM very nasty e-mails or jump off bridges.
Once again, the Ute is no more likely to carry a family than any other small performance vehicle. It's a vehicle that is an all-in-one car. No, you aren't going to sell hundreds of thousands per year, Einstein. Only a utter moron would even bring up that you can't get your family in it (Duh!...it has 2 seats
). Unless you frequently stuck forks in your eyes as a kid, you see it has a bed, and therefore can carry stuff that is considerably bigger than you can in your car, so it IS practical. Finally, not everyone wants to have to go out and buy both a pickup and a car. For someone like me, who loves to drive, occasionally needs to go pick up a couple cases of vegetables, or liquor, or beer for the day job, makes the occasional run to Office Depo for office goodies, or haul the occasional copier or fax machine in for repairs, or picks up this or that piece of funiture for the significant other or one of our friends, yet still enjoys getaways down the winding Pacific Coast highway (usually a bit above the speed limit) to Santa Barbera, or enjoys once in a while getting it on at Sears Point, or once a year has the opportunity to take a lap at Laguna Seca, and once in awhile goes to a place where there's valet parking, and makes trips to various car shows and gatherings in both Northern and Southern California..... while not having a 2 car garage, and not looking to waste money on 2 or 3 vehicles when 1 will do.... the Ute is perfect.
Last edited by guionM; 09-05-2007 at 11:03 AM.
09-05-2007, 11:07 AM
#74
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How do you not agree with that assumption? Not many families are gonna go for a two seater as a second car. What happens when mom is late from work with the family sedan/SUV, and dad has to take the kids somewherein the El Camino? It will end up the a third vehicle..much like the GTO did.
Mom can take the "Camino" and Pops can take the SUV.
People still buy standard cab pickup trucks.
People still buy 2 passenger sports cars.
Your points are weak and getting weaker, my friend.