So are Hummer sales. So?

So you're implying that retro styling killed these cars sales? While we're on that train of thought, i guess the camaro's modern styling killed it??? (sarcasm).

There's a billion reasons that factor into poor sales. I don't see why some here are hellbent on putting the blame on the styling direction....as if retro and modern styling alone mean the difference between sales success and failure.

Buyers only see two things, and it isn't modern and retro....it's ugly and nice. I don't think the styling direction is the problem, but more so the execution.

 

Even Mustang sales are up 14% right now...my point is that MOST car sales are down.

 

First off quit jumping to conlusions about me. I am not a He I am a SHE! I never said I have ALREADY seen the 5th gen. Who knows if they will truly even make a 5th gen. I am just saying, instead of discontinuing it, why not make it like the 67's. You may have seen drawings, but Ford has already made their car. That is what I am trying to say. This is not supposed to be a flame thread.

 

I'm basing this off of people who actually have seen the car, including people who are very known right here. If just one said it was retro, then I wouldn't say anything about it. But to a person, they all say it's not retro, and 2 say that while the "Crispey" drawing is very very close, they say it doesn't catch the essence of the car, which is quite up to date.

The new C6 Corvette if someone were to draw it based on descriptions might have the air of a C3 Corvette.

Finally, a few years ago the CTS was universally criticized here as ugly based on pictures in car mags. When we started seeing it in person, our opinions changed very quickly.

 

exactly, even the Masterful J.Mays has called this car RETRO but because of the bad marks Reto gets, he has changed the name.
Oh, and J.Mays, Old School=Retro. Call it retrofuturism or whatever, its still a retro design. Tails, interior, nose, side, etc. Its not a evolution of the last generation of Mustang at all. What, did the mustang evolove from a sleek and somewhat agressive front end to...a brick? The car is retro, and only you die hard fan boys and girls cant see this?
I remember reading a title of some car mag, and it had the Shelby cobra up there and it read, "Ford: They have officialy run out of ideas." That is probably the greatest line to describe what people outside of the Ford Fan Club think.
Face it, its retro. Whats next? 2010 Mustang II?

 

Everytime the retro debate comes up, the issue of sales comes up as well. I think this doesn't take everything into account.

When a car comes out, it's appearence and design is what moves it out the door initially. People who gotta have something new are the 1st in line, and are willing to pay serious markups to get one. Once more cars are on the street, and markups disappear, many of us regulr buyers who want something that stands out get a crack at buying. Finally, it's the general public that get a chance. This is the group that thinks more before purchasing a car. These are the people who wait till the prices become more realistic & actually take time to see how the car holds up, what is written about the car, and if it's something they want to buy. This goes for ALL cars, not just retro.

This is when the car needs to have more than just styling to sustain it. Some cars have it, others don't. retro is irrelevent here. Case in point: The AMC Pacer when it 1st came out in the late 70s was futuristic. It became a sales bonanza for AMC for about 2 years. When the public realized that the car got poor mileage (that glass made the car very heavy) despite having a 6, and was a dog to boot, sales dropped like bricks.

Fox Mustang's sales dropped into the toilet after just 3 years, but rebounded as quality and the glow from the 5.0 & Mustang GTs spread on the line. It was debateably the most old looking car of the 1980s.

As for "Retro", What does the Thunderbird have besides it's looks? It's not a stand out in performance, handling, it had a couple of very public early recalls, and Ford sat on the car without making any improvements or upgrades. It's sales dropped prematurely.

The Beetle. Beyond looks, it's just an economy car. Even though it's nothing more than a VW Golf, it still sells more than the Golf & makes a higher profit per model (it's priced higher), so one can make the argument that the Beetle's sales drop is putting it more inline to where it's sales should be (it's early sales made the car a craze in the begining, distorting it's long range sales profile).

The Mini. It's a very fun car to drive by all accounts, and ironically seems to be driven perdominantly by men. Unlike VW's Beetle, BMW didn't wait till the newness wore off before adding a performance version. Mini sales are still very strong. BMW limiting production of the Mini helps.

The PT Cruiser. It was initially planned to sell a modest number, and was planned to be in production only a relatively limited amount of time. However, like the VW, demand was fierce, and Chrysler scrambled like crazy to find more factories to produce the car. Sales dropped after a few years, BUT Chrysler is STILL selling as many PT Cruisers as they initially planned to sell annually in the 1st place, so even with the craze over, it's still a hot seller for Chrysler (Chrysler's best selling vehicle the last time I checked!). PT's nothing more than a stylish minivan, and since it's practical, it will continue selling well for as long as Chrysler makes them.

Finally, the upcoming Ford Mustang. Ford is already planning for the "Gotta have it first" crowd the first year, and isn't putting any special editions out (save maybe a mid-year Mach1). But Ford's Mustang has more than a few things going for it that no other so-called Retro car had.

First, it has some serious goods. It's going to have alot of aftermarket support. Ford is also going to have alot of stuff in it's catalogue to personalize the car. Also, it's going to be a seriously quick ride. Word is it will out accelerate the LS1 F-bodies (it will have gearing and torque to make up for any horsepower disadvantage, so don't expect it to go 160 mph).

Finally, Ford is going to keep sales & intrest going throughout the life of the car with special editions, performance upgrades (including that IRS they have in their back pocket), and pretty much everything else that other so-called retro cars did wrong, including resisting the urge to expand production to other plants and winding up stuck when sales return to regular levels.

In the end, retro ends up just like any other design. You have good, and you have bad. But it's what the vehicle itself offers that sustains sales.

There's one very modern sports car sold by Chevy and Pontiac that was unsuccessful, while a arguably "retro" versions from Ford outlived it.

 

I just wanted to elaborate on the Beetle some more.

BTW, R377, you're falsely stating that Beetle sales are down by 36%. The COUPE sales are down 35%, however, Beetle sales (as a whole which includes the convertible) are UP 7% in the first quarter. On top of that, Beetle is currently beating VW's sells quota of about 50,000 a year.

guionM covered the rest...

 

very well said.

 

Interesting read - this thread.
Seems like some things will never change.

Lemme not take credit for these, but maybe you have heard these quotes before...

"A great design is functional, efficient, pleasing to the eye and stirring to the soul."

"A classic design is timeless."

"Great styling NEVER goes out of fashion."


So everyone is entitled to their opinion. If you don't like the new Mustang, GREAT!
You can leave it on the lot for one of the 200k other people who will gladly put up the cash for it - no big deal!
But drop the "retro" crap, and simply state that you don't like it - period. You are an individual, entitled to your own opinion like anybody else, and you don't have to "make up excuses" for your position.

As for me, I love it. It has things in it that I have asked for. It has things I have not asked for. I wanted it to maintain the running horse in the grill, side scoops (real or not), a fastback profile (even if we can't get true notchbacks and fastbacks separately anymore), I wanted the same long nose/short deck proportions. It's all there for me... and YES, I will be buying one as soon as I can get an order in for the Shelby version.

Retro... Old... Not Futuristic... Not Modern...
Gees, gimme a break. I just saw an 8oz Coke in the cooler at the gas station today that was still in the old original curvy GLASS Coke bottle that is a registered trademark... $.65 I think it was. And it is still selling - many were gone from the cooler shelf.
Does Retro really matter as much as whether the design is GOOD or not?!?! I don't think so. Like guionM just said, it doesn't matter if it's 60 years old, if they like it, they will buy it - simple as that.

So Rant-On my troubled bretheren!!!
Beat that retro-horse 'til your keyboard breaks if it makes you feel better!
But it will make NO DIFFERENCE to anyone except another who already shares the same opinion.

 

Those are all true but those are referring to the original designs and vehicles. Since they are timeless, why create the same design? There is no need. It's just riding the coattails of the orignal designers. Do you really think that Ford will do better than an established classic? Copies are never as good as the originals, so why do it?

 

Some people just don't get it.

Alot do not want a new 67 Camaro LT1andLS1, we already had them. You can still buy one if you really want to and have the real thing. Using a few cues is way different than every cue being from a model that has been around for 37 years. People do make fun of retro cars, it's not just here.

Cool: Driving around in a 68 Camaro.

Not cool: Driving around in an uninnovative, all-out retro mobile that tries to be a 68 Camaro, a car designed 36 years ago. That might be considered cool for about half a second, by a few (unimaginative) people and maybe some 1st Gen crazy enthusiasts. There is a difference.

 

Overall vehicle sales so far this year are up about 4%. Car sales have slipped about 3%.

I'm not sure what you mean about the Beetle being out for a long time without a revision. Does the turbo or convertible not count?

Just for the heck of it, look at the Impala. It's been out for about the same length of time as the Beetle. Since 2000 Impala's sales have gone up over 50% while the Beetles have gone down about 30%. This despite the Impala being virtually unchanged while the Beetle has had the aforementioned turbo motor and convertible added.

 

Impala SS, supercharged 3.8. Sounds like change to me.

And what does this have to do with style?? And what makes you certain that style (retro, modern) had anything to do with it?

Thing is, even with a 50% increase, it is still nowhere near accord or camry sales. Moot point seeing as how it isn't even close to being a best seller in its own class. Not trying to take anything away from the impala (i'm sure it is a great value and car), but a 50% increase means little when the numbers where lackluster to begin with. I'm sure this wasn't the case with the beetle which probably had steller sales numbers in the begining.

I'm sure the heavy incentives (not available during impala debut) on the impala had a thing or two to do with the sales increase. That and the better quality ratings which bolsters consumer confidence in the product in question. There's a dozen other reasons, styling playing a very small role.

Point: I don't see the relation between sales numbers and styling with your imp vs beetle example.

 

yea but you couldnt get one here legally..its been soo long since a new beetle had been sold here..

 

Well, this is how I see it.
The Beetle, PT, and Mini arent really retro, and Ill tell you why.
The Beetle has really only had 1 design for the length of its 60+ year stretch right? The new beetle reintroduced the car back to america after it had dissapeared from VW's line up. I dont see it as a retro-design, but as an evolution as much as the C6 is an evolution of the C5, and the present 911 is of the last 911. There was no more models between the last beetle that show a 2nd generation, catch what Im saying? The new beetle is just the 2nd design of the beetle. Same goes for the Mini. Its basicly stayed the same for the longest time till BMW made the Mini again, with a redesign. Its just the 2nd gen of the Mini.
PT, well there was no real car that it picked up after. Sales are not even close to what they were originaly. DCX keeps lowering there sales expectations of the PT, while increasing models and trim levels (turbo, vert, 2dr). There was once a 6-8 month waiting list for one. I bet you 10 bucks you can go to a dealer and pick up 3 or 4 if you had the money.
But cars that follow a line of cars have shown to fail. Now, there is only really one car that hit this wall, and thats the Tbird. The tbird had gone from 2dr sports car to go head to head with the Vette, then it went to a 4 seater luxury touring car, to a land barge, back to a smaller luxury touring car. AFter its deal in 97, thats where it was left off. When they brought it back, it was exactly like the first years of the Tbrid with its 2 seater sports car design. That car failed for numerious reasons, be it engine power, image, price, style. But the Vette and other 2 seater cars have show there dominance in this time, so this leads to the Tbirds design to be at fault.
The Mustang is the 2nd attemt by ford to retro-design a car that has been evolving for the past 40 years, and has now come back to square one design wise.
So far, retro design themes have gotten the black eye from the press.
But what needs to be rememberd is who this design is appealing too. Who drove these old mustangs? Baby Boomers. In a market now dominated by Gen X and Yers looking for a sporty car, mostly from an Import, I dont think that the Mustang's design will attract any of thoes kids, and that they would soon go to a 350Z then a Mustang. The aftermarket is huge for imports and getting larger by the day. This is the point Im trying to stress is that the style the car tries to emulate is the style of the old 60's Mustangs, and thats not what kids want these days. Yes, we as muscle car enthusiasts might like it, but kids in my generation(15-25) dont want an old looking car.
If the 350Z comes out with a higer performance car or more hp to fight with teh Mustang, expect to lose a lot of new age gen x and y buyers to Nissan. I love the 350Z's styling.
If Chevy doesnt make a Camaro, and Pontiac gives up on the GTO, and there is nothing else out there but the Mustang, I will join the ranks of the Import camp. Maybe Ill just get a turbo solstice and enjoy life.