Not to beat a dead horse, but that's really just a product of advancing technology. It wasn't necessarily "revolutionary". The L98 would have a tough time being considered one of GM's most important engines of the last 15 years, yet alone the whole industry. Before the L98 didn't the 350 in the Vette (forgot the code name) come with 225 HP? So what's a 20 HP jump in the grand scheme? I guess it could get on the list because it finally made the Camaro competitive with the 5.0 Stang, but that's about it. Again, I wouldn't put the LT1 on that list either...it's just a small progression of technology from the L98.

When you're talking about the whole industry's best motors in the last 15 years, I can only consider the LSx engines and the turbo Buick 3.8s as being worthy from GM's parts bin. (Honorable mention: 4.2 I6 )

EDIT: LT5--yep nice motor, unfortunately it cost a pretty penny to manufacture and therefore purchase.

 

You guys are too tough about it. It deserves to be on there. The engines I listed did the most for their cars in their times. It doesn't have to be revolutionary, if that was the case then we would only list the LS1/LS6. The question was what do you think the top 5 engines in the last 15 years were and I listed mine.

 

I pick the 2JZ-GTE.

 

1) Any BMW V8 or I6

2) Lexus 4.3 V8

3) VW VR6

4) LS1/LS6

5) Chevy 305 smallblock

 

Relax dude....notice the smiley at the end of my post .

We came VERY close to buying a new 89 SC (first year), with only financing getting in the way. My point about "not running 10's, 11's, or 12's" was that you almost NEVER see them hot rodded to run those ET's (outside of dedicated bracket/race cars using BBF's for power). However, TR's are very well known for those kind of ET's, typically using the same basic power plant that they came with.

I'm a Ford fan from quite a ways back...we'll just have to differ on opinion....I simply don't consider a T-bird to be a "musclecar". If you do, that is ok with me.

Ok. Some good arguements from a platform standpoint.

Hmmm....no offense, but I don't see many TPI cars run that fast regardless of what they are in - as compared to LT1, LS1, or even 5.0 powered vehicles.

Sure, and with the right drivers, a stock 02 GT can beat a stock 02 LS1 too. However, driven to their potential, and in their quickest form (meaning an 5.0 T5 LX Coupe), they still lagged behind. Further, they were rare - while 5.0's were (and still are) a "dime a dozen"....for better or for worse.

And I didn't talk to anybody to come to my conclusions...I was driving and racing 5.0's and even TPI Z's back in "the day".

Disclaimer - the TPI we owned was NOT an L98. However, I raced and saw more than one at the track. You could always tell an L98 Z because it always ran significantly quicker than every other 3rd Gen at the track that day.

There were those that considered the engine/tranny combo to be as fast as the L98/A4. In fact, MM&FF ran 14.3-ish in a shootout back in 91 or so. I have the article scanned somewhere....if interested, I'll look it up when I get home (I'm on a business trip right now, and my access is limited).

Granted, but one could argue pretty effectively that the LT1 was a bigger leap up in performance - and certainly in importance - than the L98. If for no other reason, the sheer number of LT1's vs L98's makes it more significant.

See statement above (5.0 vs L98). Whilst this did and does happen, it is the exception vice the rule - especially with equal mods. How many L98's do you know of that are running in the 12's n/a without ever lifting a valve cover? How about LOW 12's?

Well, ok, but I'd like to see the numbers, then compare those numbers to the other TPI powerplants and to the LT1 numbers. I think they are more rare than you wish to believe. I ask that you prove me wrong, if you have the data. : )

So if this still a problem? If it is not, where are the really fast L98 cars? In the end, low-mid rpm power feels good on the street, but you'll simply run out of rpm when you try and make the car truly fast. Power = torque * rpm. Torque is half the equation - but rpm is the other part. This explains how a car can go 11.6 @ 3225 lbs with only 300 lb/ft torque. Where it makes that 300 ft/lbs - and then gearing accordingly - makes all the difference in the world. If you limit the rpm, you limit the ability to gear the car aggressively (unless you have 5 or 6 non overdrive gears in your tranny to work with ).

Will not argue the "fun to drive" factor. That is typically personal preference anyways.

 

Here we go. Alot of writing LOL.

I meant the SBC 350 is the most used engine for performance. I'd like to be there when you run into 1 of those modded TPI cars that aren't fast. Especially on the street from a stop. Underestimating is never good, anything can be fast if you want it to be. Engine-wise LT1's and LS1's were more powerfull than L98's stock, 5.0's were not. But the thing is that TPI is expensive and a little more difficult than a 5.0 so no doubt there should be more highly modded 5.0's out there, thats 1 of the reasons you guys like that engine so much.

Which was faster stock for stock driven to their highest potential is speculation because every1 on each side of the L98 vs. 5.0 scene says something different for their engines, some even say the other guys cars are faster. The majority of races I've seen of both being stock or near stock has been the L98 winning by a little. The 350 TPI pulls alot at 1st then the 5.0 tends to start catching up later on, of course the cars are not new but still. IMO its a drivers race but I think that a 3400lb. car with 245HP/345TQ, 3.23's, and with a trans geared like the 700 is or being manually shifted, should be able to take a 5.0 M5 LX all being stock down to the filters if a good launch is made. There were lots of 5.0's produced you are correct but there was a good amount of L98's also. From 87-92 there was a little more than 48,000 L98 Camaros produced. There were other choices and cheaper combinations available so that is alot for an option that ran for 6 years only.

Not needed because that's just a magazine test and you probably know what those are usually worth. The fact is if you take a same year L98 A4 vs. an LB9 M5, the L98 will win. I know G92 L98's that ran 14.0-14.20 stock, I've never seen any of the 305's do that or beat them on the street either, although they are usually just 2-4 few tenths behind, if G92 equipped that is and driven incredibly.

It wasn't that big of a leap, and not in the low-mid RPM TQ department. The LT1 Auto's are real close to the L98 A4's. (The L98 should have been available with a manual) I don't know what the number of engines made or cars equipped has to do with it. The Third Gen had this thing called choices, the 4th Gen did not understand this.

It would depend on exactly what you did before lifting a valve cover. High 12's on an L98 would be possible if you did every single thing else besides the engine. For low 12's you have to get in there and make it flow better, the heads at least.

Already discussed.

Where are they?? I know of a few. And most of them don't wanna say what they've done unfortunatly, the engines look all stock but run nothing like it. You are right, TPI doesn't like gear. But even after all this, expensive or more difficult, the L98 is a performer and was definetly something when it came out, it deserves to be on the list. Where were Corvettes before the L98?? Not in high 13's-real low 14's thats for sure. They were in what, high 15's running CFI!! Come on!! Like I said, real performance came back for us with the L98 and its been progressing ever since. The 350 TPI and 5.0 brought back the muscle to musclecars. LT1's and LS1's also never had as good of a competitor as the 350 TPI's had, so they come out looking like they were the fastest things when it was F*rd that didn't really do something or up the power like Chevrolet did in 87, they waited until they stopped making them.

 

I think that it is useful to remember the performance time frame that the L98 came out in.

Most enthusiasts, magazines,.....everyone, were calling the V8 a lame duck. No one thought that V8's would make it into the '90s.

This was also a time when no one thought that engines (other than exotics), would ever make much more than 200 hp again.

I remember reading on the C4's introduction, that "GM was working on a new port type fuel injection system", that had the potential for 250 hp.

TWO HUNDRED AND FIFTY HORSEPOWER!!!! My jaw nearly hit the ground!

TPI and the L98 were a pretty big deal when introduced in 1984 (MY'85).

 

So long as this can stay civil (as it has), this is fun.

Can't argue with that. Of course, the vast majority are carburated these days....but I still won't argue the specific point.

Bring it! Except you'll never find me racing on the street.

Just curious....and an honest question, as I don't keep up with the 3rd gen scene....what is the quickest stock displacement, N/A TPI you know of? Not 383, and not carbed....350-358 TPI (juice or Guido turbo's need not apply).

No doubt about that - but is not the point I'm trying to make.

Agreed. Total package made the difference. Another honest curiousity question...do you have any bone-stock L98 (F-body version) dyno's that you could point me too?

And a lot more common - but I agree with your other reasons (I think "a little more difficult" is a bit off though ).

We will likely end up agreeing to disagree on this one, but I most certainly disagree. They were close, but I never heard of, nor have seen documented, any 3rd gen outside of the 89 TTA going high 13's in 100% bone stock form. Make no mistake - I've seen my fair share of 15 second LX Coupe's too - lots and lots of variables to take into consideration.

IMHO, if the 5.0 guy is average or worse, he's in trouble (against an L98, that is). If he's really good, then the situation is reversed. Again, comes down to the actual potential of the package. But I still disagree with your final statement. Sorry.

That's quite a few (actually more than I would have guessed), but only about 18% of all V8 3rd Gen's built in the same time period (266,857 - not counting 92 'birds....which for whatever reason were not included in my source: http://www.f-body.org/tech/3rd_gen.htm )

BTW....may I ask what your source is? I'd like to check it out.

I am a big fan of dispelling the myth that "HP sells cars, torque wins races". Low-mid range torque feels great on the street, but mid-high rpm torque (and thus HP) will beat it every time - assuming both combo's are optimized. All the torque in the world at 2500 rpm won't do you much good if you can't gear the car to take advantage of it. Everything else being equal, and if both cars are geared correctly (not the same - correctly), a car that makes 345 lb/ft torque at 3200 rpm is going to get killed by a car that makes 325 lb/ft torque at 4400 rpm.

If you ask around, you will likely find more than a few A4 LT1 owners who have gone pretty deep into the 13's with a bone stock A4 LT1. Not real common - but it happened. Were they close? Yes - but the advantage is clear.....personal bias aside.

I agree that the L98 would have been neat with a manual...but would have been just doesn't cut the mustard.

It *might* be possible. However, it hasn't happened. If it has, please show me. The point is that both the 5.0 and LT1 have gone FAR into the 12's with stock internal motors - the L98 has not.

I know there are some very fast 3rd gen's out there. Guido comes to mind. However, n/a, TPI L98 cars that run 11's are about as common as Russians on the moon. They might (probably?) exist...but I'd sure like to see one.

I agree it was a performer. We can agree to disagree on the list. Besides...these "lists" are nothing but personal preference based on personal biases with a sprinkling of factual information thrown in to try and make it valid.

I remember the 82 and 84 cross-fire cars....especially the 84, as that was the first year of the new body style. We all ooooohhh'd and aaaahhhhh'd over em. At the time, they were the ticket....though still a tick or two slower than a 175 HP 5.0 Mustang.

LOL. Again, for those of us the lived/drove/raced in the time period, the 82 Mustang was the car given the most credit for reviving the "muscle car". It was the first of the "modern" 5.0's. IMHO, and though it was a performer, the L98 simply didn't have enough numbers to be considered one of the motors to "bring back" the muscle to musclecars.

Some 96/97 DOHC Cobra owners might disagree with you on that....and my 99 does ok against most LS1's...though I do agree with the premise of your point.

 

Both of us agree and disagree on alot of stuff and neither of us is gonna move any. So I will answer your questions, and yes it has been pretty cool.

That is because those numbers are all incorrect and have nothing to do with L98 production besides that they were only put in 87-90 IROC-Z28s and 91-92 Z28s. The Camaro White book has all the numbers right from Chevrolet and the L98/B2L production came out to just over 48,000 all together, not including test cars of course. If you want accurate Third Gen data and charts go here: http://www.thirdgen.org/newdesign/tech/techdb.shtml

I had some yes but I have no idea where they are now, I never saved the links, but if I do find them I will post them. Some dude just dynoned 214RWHP and 312RWTQ stock, I just wish I could find the post and the others. (Doh) It was I *think* an 88. (230HP@4400/330TQ@3200)

Usually low 12's or high 11's. Check out this post, http://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/show...hreadid=163637 I gotta look for others.

I have to say though that I've never seen the whole 5.0 running high 13's completely stock, and I mean completely, or an owner say that they did in person.

 

Thanks for the link, but except for the fact that the one you pointed to has more detail (and includes the 92 Firebird numbers), the figures are identical.

I'll take your word on the L98 production...but I'd still like to see em.

Ok. Tks. One would think that SOMEONE on Thirdgen.org would post relevant numbers.

BTW....does a guy that posts as "RobP" with a ZZ4 RS and a low-mileage 92-ish Z28 Convertible still post over there? He used to live close to me. Great guy.

Thanks. Couple of fast cars for sure.

FWIW...I read through a link that was linked from your thread concerning "bolt-on" 12's. I too, think it can be done - and if you believe one of the posts in that thread - it has been done. However, it certainly does NOT take 300 RWHP.

It's not like its a common occurance. In fact, I'd say that about as many 5.0's have gone 13.9x in pure stock form as L98's have gone 14.1 in pure stock form.

 

Lemme see. 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11......I can't count all the posts.

If the purpose of all those posts was that, all things being equal, the fastest stock 5.0 Mustang was .1 to .2 seconds faster than the fastest stock TPI Camaro........well then, I agree.

 

If i could add a sixth motor to my list it would be a 3800 series II motor. This motor is one the best and most reliable motors ever built...PERIOD... anyways since my topic turned into a 305 topic, that motor isnt bad, but whats so good about it... the motor has head gasket problems and wasnt all that fast... so whats so amazing about it ?

 

The figures are not the same, take a good look at all the charts on TGO compared to f-body.org. (Are you looking at the drivetrain or production charts?!)

As for the L98 Camaro production, you asked......

87: 12,105
88: 12,116
89: 12,370
90: 2,415
91: 6,080
92: 3,038

Add it up.


Of course.

Yeah, he is a regular poster.

If you really wanna get down to it, there have been L98 1LE's and B4C's that have gone high 13's stock. They might be rare cars and that might be a rare occurance, but it has happened also. I mean, the LX 5.0's are almost 1LE-like when you think about it!! Top engine/light weight combination, although 1LE's and B4C's had more than just weight reduction.

 

I'd say that this is likely a pretty accurate statement.

I'm looking soley at production, and still don't see any discrepancies. It really doesn't matter....you still end up with ~18% of all V8's being L98's. And I don't doubt your numbers, I'd just like to see the reference that has them.

Virtually anything is possible, but until this morning when I read this, I had never heard of such a thing. You'll excuse me for being rather....uh....skeptical.

There is no doubt that a "stripper" LX Coupe is going to be the quickest of the bunch, and that a 1LE would be the closest offering from GM. I ordered my 88 Coupe (yes, I just dated myself a bit) without A/C or leather, but it did (does) have power windows/locks, upgraded stereo, and a few other things.

 

Here's where you've got yourself a good argument IZ28.

A stripped, 5 speed, 5.0 LX sedan with 3.08 gear was fast. Really fast. And maybe a really good one was faster than a 1LE, (maybe)......but only in a straight line a quarter mile at a time.

The 1LE...as you mentioned was far more than a stripped car with a motor in box. It had a highly tuned suspension and AWESOME brakes.

In comparison...the nicest thing you could say about a 5.0 Mustang was that.....well...forget being nice, the 5.0's brakes and suspension were crap.