True. There was NO 305 in ANY thirdgen rated at 140HP. Period. Anyone who claims there was simply hasn't done their homework.

gt

 

Hi guys, this is my first post!

C'mon kizz, let's not get all out of whack over someone downgrading the '82 LG4 5 horsepower. What is the difference between 140 and 145 horses anyhow? Might as well be 40.

My favorite 5 motors of the last 15 years echo the choices of a few others:

1. LS6
2. LS1
3. LT4
4. LT1
5. LT5

 

This is all my opinion, though I will throw in facts here and there to support that opinion.

1. 5.0
2. LS1/LS6
3. LT1
4. Buick's Turbo 3.8 SFI
5. Take your pick

I listed the 5.0 first because more than any other powerplant in the last 15 (or 30) years, it is the most responsible for the abundance of readily-available torque on the street and track today. From this perspective, all the rest are also-rans.

The LS1/LS6 is second because lets face it, where else (from the factory) can you get big block power in a small block packagewith V6 gas mileage at Turbo 4 cylinder weight? Had this engine been in a long-running, successful chassis, it is my opinion that it would dethrone the 5.0 as the most influencial performance motor of all time.

When it was made available, the LT1 was the engine that put the F-body back on top (sorry L98 guys). From then on, Ford played catchup, with only brief periods of parity and/or slight advantage (96-97 DOHC Cobra).

Though purist might throwup on these words, the GN/TR was the last of the "muscle cars" to roam the streets. What set this car in a TOTALLY different league from its GM stablemates (MC, GP, 442)? Easy....that turbo hung on a rather bland 3.8L engine. Instant classic.

I don't think any other motors came close to the importance of the ones I've listed above, so I'll leave that blank. Yes, I'm leaving off the 4.6 DOHC in my current ride, along with the L98 (oh the agony some will have over this), the LT5, the Yamaha 3.0 DOHC in the SHO (I owned an 89), and several others.

Quick word about 5.0 vs 3rd Gen....those commenting on their performance, how many of you bought, drove, and raced new cars in the late 80's to very early 90's? Those of you that spent a lot of time at the track back then actually racing know the REAL story. There's a reason that there are several magazines and racing organizations devoted to one car/engine combo and not the other.

Figure it out.

 

Um, what about the '82 LG4 dude? I know my '85 LG4 was rated at 155hp, I know the '83 was 145.....was there what exactly 140? I'd have to go check my books, but 145 is pretty darned close and pretty darned weak.

 

Those of us running 5 speed Thunderbird Super Coupes as daily drivers might disagree with you on that.

 

LOL....ya, but I never heard the moniker "muscle car" used in the same sentence as the T-bird.....not too many of em run 10's, 11's, or even 12's either. No offense.

 

I don't think any "muscle cars" ran 10's or 11's, stock. Very few ran 12's..... and virtually all of those are new.

The Super Coupe was a pretty "muscular car" for it's time.

 

LOL. No kidding? Golly, I thought GN's ran 9's right from the factory.

Obviously my post went right over you head. My apologies.

 

Sorry, I think that you just zoomed over my head again.

 

IMO, in no particular order it should be: (based on performance and what they did for their time and how they are these days)

L98, T/Ced 3.8, LT1, 5.0, LS1/LS6. There are alot you could mention but these are probably the best IMO.

 

I don't wish to be intentionally argumentative, but is it that puts the L98 on that list? It was a rather rare version of the 350 in the late 80's/early 90's, and beyond the really good low-rpm power and that fact that it was standard in the Vette, I just don't see that much relevance.

 

Also consider that it really offered no advantage over the SEFI 351 from Ford, other than the fact that the L98 was indeed offered in a car.

 

Well, um, let's see:

the '85 Grand Nationals ran upper 15s, 1970 Buick GSs ran upper 14s, 1970 GTOs ran mid 14s, 69 Hemi Chargers ran mid 13s, LS6 Chevelle SSs ran just a tick above 13 flat.......nope, no 10s, 11s, or 12s there either. Guess they aren't muscle cars, huh?

Thunderbird SCs (especially the later ones) ran solid mid 15s, which puts it a whole 1/2 second faster in the quarter mile than the original GTO, complete with 389 and 3x2 barrel carbs and automatic(Motor Trend, February 1965), or is barely edged out by the same car with a manual at around 15 flat (Road & Track, March 1964), close enough to make it a driver's race.

The Thunderbird SC is also quicker than an L34 396SS Chevelle in every catagory (0-60, 1/4 mile, top speed). I think someone would take issue saying that car isn't a muscle car.

So, putting the glorified muscle car pedastal aside, and looking at actual numbers the actual cars actually made, Thunderbird SC is safely into muscle car territory (unless you are going to exclude a whole lot of cars that are considered "muscle cars".... I keep a list, so choose wisely )

Thunderbird SC is not at the top of the muscle car list by far, but very very safely in muscle car territory.

 

What is it that puts it on?? OK. Before 87 all we had was low powered 305's and never broke into the low 14's with anything stock. It was probably the 1st time an F-Body saw low 14's since what the early 70's (even today, if you are running real low 14's as L98 G92 Camaros are capable of if you can hook, you're still gonna beat 80-90% of what you'll meet on the street everyday) and the 1st time we saw a 350 in the car in 5 years. That is important in itself because we all know what a 350's potential is compared to a 305. They are the most used engines for performance and are swapped into all different makes of cars so its like if you don't wanna use TPI you can do whatever and still have a fast car, with the 305 we didn't have that. And there were plenty of stock L98's beating stock 5.0's (and I don't mean a M*stang owners idea of stock, I mean stock) on the street and track, I've seen it, and I know dudes who did it when the cars both were brand new. The engine brought back real performance to the Camaro (by real performance I mean at least low 14's because anything else is well, kinda slow) I also give credit to the later LB9 M5 G92 cars because they were capable of running mid-high 14's being that 305's aren't really performance engines, our 5.0 is a little differently designed than yours. The L98 is a SBC 350, and so is the LT1, L98's have beat LT1's before stock or with equal mods. I know of early A4 LT1's running 14.40's and later TPI's running 14.20's. It was not really rare either, there were a good amount of them made. The problem with TPI is that so many do not know how to mod/tune it correctly. Instead of working with the intakes' capabilty to make incredible low-mid RPM power, people try to get it to rev. I think your intakes are more able to make power up top, but we've got that low-mid RPM TQ locked. This is probably the reason why I'm seeing more show cars using L98's/TPI. Besides its good looks, its fun to drive.

 

But any 350 of the era would have probably done that for the Fbody. What we are asking is what is outstanding, revolutionary, or dominating about the L98?

I don't necessarily agree with Bob putting the 5.0 on top of the list. I was thinking of this post in terms of significant technical contributions, but by talking about dominating the performance market he changed the definition of the list a little, and that is fine with me.

But what can you say about the L98 that makes it special or unique? Yes F-bodies finally got into the 14s, but the same block, heads, cam and a carb would have done the same thing.

The ONLY thing I can really come up with was that it was fairly radical for its time...GMs first mass produced multiport injected motor outside of Caddy that people actually lusted after. Maybe you can say it deserves it because it was GM's first use of the roller cams. IMO, however, neither the L98 or Ford 5.0 were technical marvels, at least not enough to get on the list of the 5 best engines of the last 15 yrs. Quite frankly the LS1/LS6 is probably the only GM engine that should be on there. The rest, if we really got picky about it, would be BMWs and things like that.