GuionM: Not sure if you'd know this or not, but I have thought about this for some time from other posts you've made regarding the Firebird.

Would you know why Pontiac has always had the green light in terms of producing special editions of the Firebird? And why it had different hoods, front ends, spoilers etc., when compared to the Camaro? It just seems odd to me that if in fact the Camaro sells more than Firebird, wouldn't GM give more leeway to the Camaro?

PacerX: What you bring up is very informative, and I agree with much of what you said. So what I don't understand is, if the Firebird could return on a different platform differentiated from Camaro and wouldn't be the "same" as Camaro, then there wouldn't be a problem right?

I'll say this in parting, why is it that no one, except for a select few, gives a damn about the Firebird name itself? There's dozens of posts trying to save the Camaro name, and posts where people say they won't buy the new Chevy RWD coupe if it's not called Camaro. So why is it when anyone brings up the point of trying to save the Firebird name, it gets shot down? If you want to say it'll only steal valuable resources from the Camaro, thent that's fine. But it seems to me that people just have a complete disregard and lack of respect of what the Firebird name means to many people and what tradition it ahs as well. I don't know if it's contempt for the Firebird, but it seems like it.

 

You have to understand the marketing hierarchy of GM. Since time immemorial there's been one. Fisher Body used to give Chevrolet and Cadillac anything they wanted. Pontiac, Buick and Olds got whatever was left over, a condition that led to the demise of Fisher, and the following demise of Olds (they got what they wanted, but couldn't sell it...).

Cadillac is at the top of the GM ladder, along with Chevrolet. Cadillac is there for two reasons:

1) Cadillac has traditionally made money.

2) Cadillac is the flagship (apart from Corvette).

Note that Cadillac got their own pseudo-Corvette off of the same platform and assembly line, a situation previously unheard of that probably sent certain folks at GM into convulsions when they heard about it...

Chevrolet gets what it wants for one reason:

They move the iron. They got what they wanted because they could sell it.

Pontiac is stuck squarely in the middle, with not much room to manuver. Chevrolet sells appliances (apart from Camaros and Corvettes and... errr... SSR's), Cadillac sells dreams. The space between appliances and dreams is pretty crowded (Mercury, Buick, Chrysler, Acura, etc...).

They call the denizens of this space "near luxury" cars. Even the dream car marketers intrude onto this space with such turds as 4 cylinder 3 series BMW's and lamed-out lowline Mercedes, Infiniti and Lexus cars.

So, what position is Pontiac in? Caught between Chevrolet and the near-luxury crowd, Pontiac has tried to tiptoe a line between a highly optioned Impala ($33,030) and a low-end CTS ($31,345).

There's a NEGATIVE margin there to fit in the entirety of Pontiac's mid to large 4-door sedan lineup (meaning Bonneville and Grand Prix).

You, as a buyer can go straight from an Impala to a Cadillac without ever stepping foot in a Pontiac dealer... and even save some cash on the Cadillac.

Does this explain Pontiac's inherent problem? Buick has the same issue... trapped between an Impala and a Cadillac.

***EDIT: Final point. Why didn't GTO get the LS6? The cost difference between the LS1 and the LS6 really isn't that impressive, the $2000 they're putting on the hood to sell them right now would cover it - AND THEY'D MOVE A LOT MORE GTO's!!!! The GTO already pays the gas-guzzler tax in automatics, who cares if the manuals do? Add to that the fact that the added LS6 volume would HELP Corvette's business case and that GTO, due to weight alone, would never threaten Corvette Z06's performance-wise.***



Brand.

People stay loyal to brands, just like you are right now.

Harley-Davidson knows how important the brand is. The problem is that Pontiac has precious little to build that brand with, and precious little space to do it.

GTO is a baby step, Soltice is a big leap into real branding from Pontiac. For the first real time in a loooong, looong time, Pontiac finally has something that neither Chevrolet or Buick or anyone else has... unique Pontiac cars.


The last one of note was Fiero, if that indicates to you how long it has taken...

 

Right. Guess what?

They did.

It's 1/2 GTO and 1/2 Solstice.

Pontiac has effectively split the Firebird into two cars. The sporty little go fast zippy car and the powerful grand touring car.

If a Solstice and a GTO breed...

You get Firebird babies.



Don't be offended.

This is a Camaro board.

The Firebird boards (if they're out there) will have plenty to say about the 3rd generation being so completely dominated by Chevrolet that the Camaro effectively killed the Firebird dead...

Which it did.

Fratricide through commonality.

In the end, Chevrolet killed the Firebird by making it too much like a Camaro becuase they could dominate the business case. The first deadly blow was landed prior to 1982...

 

the firebird is a higher end model than camaro it allways has been!! if you wanted to go fast and look good get camaro! but if want the same proformance and look better and more options then you get a firebird both my buddies have Z28 camaro 93' and 00' and my 00' trans am has better seats more options a better ride and just a all around better car. i'm not saying the camaro isn't a great car cause it is, but for poeple to say that pontiac gets whats left over is stupid!! take a look around everything that pontiac offers is a higer-end model then what chevy has.( except the vette )

camaro ss = trans am ws6
cavaliar = sunfire
monte carlo = grand prix
impala = bonnivlle
what about the grand prix gtp and wait five years later the impala ss and monte carlo ss that seems to me like chevy got the left overs to me!!!
the firebird and camaro died togather and need to come back togather to bring one back is dumb. i'm not looking from GM's point of view, i'm looking from a die hard f-body fan theres nothing like going out cursin witha couple Z28 and T/A's beating up on unsuspecting fords!!

 

I think you Firebird guys make maybe a few good observations, but the car is just not coming back because there's no business case for it, at this time. The Camaro is the more important/popular car and it's coming back hopefully. You can compare it to if Challenger fans were arguing that it should be coming back with the Charger, but it isn't, and they would know it's just not possible yet.

 

I'd be interested in the ratio of chevy dealers to pontiac (i'd guess 3:1??). Given the sheer number of chevy dealerships, the 2:1 ratio doesn't surprise me one bit. If anything, that should be expected.

 

Firebird as a name could actually return but NOT as the Camaro's twin. I posted about a 'hinted at' Kappa coupe that might be fitting to be named Firebird, it would have a TOTALLY different skin than Solstice. Just something to think about.

 

Thank you. This is what I was basically looking for in all of the FIrebird threads (other than some hope it would come back ) Some love for the Firebird instead of the same old "It's dead, get over it, Camaro is better."

 

Yeah, I'd be interested as well. I posted this same idea in another thread. Add to the fact that Camaro is priced cheaper model to model when compared to Firebird and there's a formula for Camaro netting larger sales.

 

Look at it THIS way, IF the Firebird name comes back, it will most likely be on a kind of car that Pontiac intended it to be in the first place. In other words, not a Camaro with some Pontiac stuff. (a sporty 2-seater instead)

 

PacerX: Great posts. You've earned some respect from me. I very much agree with alot of what you've said, and it's nice you can back it up. I saw a GTO the other day.

They actually aren't bad looking.

And I love Firebird, but right now there is NO business case to bring it back. If the Camaro comes back (or should I say when???) there will be a much, much better case. And it'll be better than ever.

The Firebird has always been the Yin to the Camaro's yang, and I can't wait to see those days come back.

I'm shooting for 2012.

 

why don't we stop to think why there are more Chevy dealers? oh yeah, it's because THEY SELL MORE CARS. catch 22.

 

now you see what we've seen for a while now. great to have you aboard. just wish it didn't take all this drama to break in the newbies.

 

Then why even i expect a Pontiac to outsell a chevy? Shouldn’t they be “expected” to sell in smaller volumes? It should be no surprise. It all goes hand in hand. They sell more cars because they are much larger, and they are much larger because of the more abundant dealership base. 30,000 firebird sales seem poor to some (and it is), but chevy on the other hand only manages 10,000 more with close to twice the dealerships. Chevy moves 30,000 some vettes in the same showrooms as 40,000 camaros. So in retrospective, firebird sales weren't really poorer than camaro sales imo.

 

Newbie I may be, but you're a very, VERY abrasive person. People take a whole lot of what you say personally-I don't disagree with a bit of what you say; it's how you say it that gets me.