What was Pontiac thinking?
07-25-2004, 11:18 PM
#46
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Re: What was Pontiac thinking?
Originally Posted by PacerX
This is utter nonsense.
Listen to me closely:
AZTEK OUTSOLD THE FIREBIRD.
GTO is a different car for a different market. If you don't like it, fine... but don't blather on about how it should have been saved or what a terrible error it was to kill the Firebird. GM couldn't give Firebirds away.
AT LEAST GTO is worth some good press from the mags.
Listen to me closely:
AZTEK OUTSOLD THE FIREBIRD.
GTO is a different car for a different market. If you don't like it, fine... but don't blather on about how it should have been saved or what a terrible error it was to kill the Firebird. GM couldn't give Firebirds away.
AT LEAST GTO is worth some good press from the mags.
SPORTS UTILITY VEHICLE
Trying to compare the Aztek to the Bird (or any car to any SUV) is just plain stupid... they're in totally different markets.
07-26-2004, 07:06 AM
#47
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Re: What was Pontiac thinking?
Yup. He acts like that thing outsold the sales of every Gen/year Firebird. What 4th Gens DID sell good? You can't go by that.
Last edited by IZ28; 07-26-2004 at 07:14 AM.
07-26-2004, 09:22 AM
#48
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Re: What was Pontiac thinking?
Originally Posted by GirlsRidePonies
Man. You really missed the point.
I really really like Corvettes, and other high performance cars (and I think the GTO is... adequate, sure as hell better than a rice burner), but at my age, they're very much out of my price range.
The reason I worshipped the WS6 is simply because it was a little performance at a with much less green. I respect (I didn't say like, mind you) the Mustang for the same reason. I believe my father got his 97 WS6 for around 27k (when it was brand new, off the lot). Not as powerful as a GTO, for sure, but it sure felt nice.
I just want something priced that someone in my bracket can afford.
07-26-2004, 12:18 PM
#49
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Re: What was Pontiac thinking?
Originally Posted by IZ28
Yup. He acts like that thing outsold the sales of every Gen/year Firebird. What 4th Gens DID sell good? You can't go by that.
I think Pacer's point is that everyone pretty much agrees the Aztec was not a "mainstream" vehicle in the fact that it was horrifically ugly....and it still outsold by a large margin what some would term a "beautiful" vehicle in the T/A. I think it effectively illustrates Pontiac's frustration with the car, different markets or not.
07-26-2004, 01:00 PM
#50
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Re: What was Pontiac thinking?
Originally Posted by GirlsRidePonies
The reason I worshipped the WS6 is simply because it was a little performance at a with much less green. I respect (I didn't say like, mind you) the Mustang for the same reason. I believe my father got his 97 WS6 for around 27k (when it was brand new, off the lot).
1997 was 7 years ago!! Final WS6s cost nearly $32,000.
07-26-2004, 01:04 PM
#51
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Re: What was Pontiac thinking?
Originally Posted by GirlsRidePonies
Um. The Aztek is what we like to call a:
SPORTS UTILITY VEHICLE
Trying to compare the Aztek to the Bird (or any car to any SUV) is just plain stupid... they're in totally different markets.
SPORTS UTILITY VEHICLE
Trying to compare the Aztek to the Bird (or any car to any SUV) is just plain stupid... they're in totally different markets.
One just happens to be the second ugliest vehicle on the planet, and the butt of jokes the world around that's going to an early grave...
Meanwhile, it OUTSOLD THE FIREBIRD and they killed it dead anyway.
It did not, however, outsell Camaro...
07-26-2004, 01:19 PM
#52
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Re: What was Pontiac thinking?
Originally Posted by Z28Wilson
I think Pacer's point is that everyone pretty much agrees the Aztec was not a "mainstream" vehicle in the fact that it was horrifically ugly....and it still outsold by a large margin what some would term a "beautiful" vehicle in the T/A. I think it effectively illustrates Pontiac's frustration with the car, different markets or not.
. I love the GTO and think it is a great idea, but see killing the Firebird or viewing the GTO as some firebird T/A replacement as a bad idea.
On the topic of Aztec's outselling the firebird, so?
1) Firebird outsold GTO.
2) Camaro sales too were horribly dismissal and pathetic when compared to its nearest competitor (mustang), yet people make a business case for them.
3) Heck, Ford’s 2 seater overpriced TB which fills an even smaller niche is going on a hiatus due to poor sales, and even it too outsells GTO by a good margin.
So to say one car has a future despite bad sales, while condemning another one (which ironically sold in larger numbers, been on market for close to 30 some years, and reached a wider market) seems backwards to me.
If in fact the firebird is dead, i think it was pre-mature.
Last edited by RiceEating5.0; 07-26-2004 at 01:24 PM.
07-26-2004, 01:54 PM
#53
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Re: What was Pontiac thinking?
Originally Posted by Big Als Z
I belive the Camaro sold some 65k units in 02, as the Firebird sold under 35k... Almost 2 to 1. Im sure Guy has some nice sales numbers. Lets not get into a big thing about who outsold who..
1. Cobra production from 1965-1969 is not included (it was counted as a separate line by Ford).
2. Numbers preceded by an asterik (*) designates a redesigned version.
Year: Mustang ("fox" Capri)/Camaro (Firebird)/AMC Javelin
64:*121,583/NA
65: 559,451/NA
66: 607,568/NA
67: 474,121/ *220,906(82,560)
68: 317,404/ 235,147(107,112) 63,169
69: 299,824/ 243,065(87,708) 48,968
70: 190,727/ 124,901(48,739) --------
71:*149,678/ *114,630(53,124) 27,554
72: 125,093/ 114,630..not a typo!(29,951) 26,184
73: 134,867/ 96,751(46,313) 27,536
74:*385,993/ 151,008(73,729) 29,536
75: 188,575/ 145,770(84,063)
76: 187,567/ 182,959(110,775)
77: 153,173/ 218,858(155,736!)
78: 192,410/ 272,631(187,285!!)
79:*369,936(110,144 Capri)/ 282,571(211,455! )
80: 271,322(79,984 Capri)/ 152,005(191,340)
81: 181,552(58,946 Capri)/ 126,139(70,899)
82: 130,418(36,134 Capri)/ *189,747(116,362)
83: 120,873(25,376 Capri)/ 154,318(74,884)
84: 135,678(20,642 Capri)/ 261,591(128,304)
85: 156,514(18,657 Capri)/ 180,018(95,880)
86: 224,410(20,869 Capri)/ 192,219(110,463)
87: 159,145/ 137,760(88,612)
88: 211,225/ 96,275(62,467)
89: 209,769/ 110,850(64,406)
90: 128,189/ 35,048(20,553)
91: 98,737/ 101,316(50,247)
92: 79,280/ 70,712(27,567)
93: 114,228/ *39,755(14,313)
94:*123,198/ 119,934(45,615)
95: 185,986/ 122,844(51,730)
96: 126,483/ 66,827(31,023)
97: 100,254/ 95,812(30,754)
98: 170,642/ 77,198(32,157)
99: 126,067/ 42,098(33,850)
00: 218,525/ 45,417(?)
01: 155,162/ 29,009 (?)
02: 143,518/42,098 (30,690)
03 128,101/ no Camaro or Firebird production
2001 F-body production ended in May 2001. 2002 F body production lasted from June 2001 to August 2002, an extended 14 month run.
production figures
07-26-2004, 02:15 PM
#54
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Re: What was Pontiac thinking?
Originally Posted by PacerX
Yes, different markets...
One just happens to be the second ugliest vehicle on the planet, and the butt of jokes the world around that's going to an early grave...
Meanwhile, it OUTSOLD THE FIREBIRD and they killed it dead anyway.
It did not, however, outsell Camaro...
One just happens to be the second ugliest vehicle on the planet, and the butt of jokes the world around that's going to an early grave...
Meanwhile, it OUTSOLD THE FIREBIRD and they killed it dead anyway.
It did not, however, outsell Camaro...
Let's have a look.
42,098 (30,690)
To restate an earlier point, I do not want the Camaro to fail, it's probably the ticket to another Firebird, but I won't stand by and watch the Firebird bashing.
07-26-2004, 02:33 PM
#55
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Re: What was Pontiac thinking?
Originally Posted by Ramune
If I recall correctly, you're speaking of the final year of Firebird production.
Let's have a look.
About 11,400 more Camaros than Firebirds (The GTO probably won't make that difference. Not to bash the GTO, as I rather like it, but something to think about for all the people who might say the GTO is better for Pontiac). Anyway, it'd be interesting to see how many Azteks were sold in 2002, considering that, even if the Camaro did outsell the Aztek, it barely did it.
To restate an earlier point, I do not want the Camaro to fail, it's probably the ticket to another Firebird, but I won't stand by and watch the Firebird bashing.
Let's have a look.
About 11,400 more Camaros than Firebirds (The GTO probably won't make that difference. Not to bash the GTO, as I rather like it, but something to think about for all the people who might say the GTO is better for Pontiac). Anyway, it'd be interesting to see how many Azteks were sold in 2002, considering that, even if the Camaro did outsell the Aztek, it barely did it.
To restate an earlier point, I do not want the Camaro to fail, it's probably the ticket to another Firebird, but I won't stand by and watch the Firebird bashing.
Who's bashing? They couldn't sell them - that's not bashing, just a fact.
07-26-2004, 02:46 PM
#56
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Re: What was Pontiac thinking?
I've seen your other posts in other threads. So, the difference between 31,000 and 42,000 is so astronomical that one is a strong seller that can barely be kept on a lot, but the 31,000 seller is doing horribly? 
07-26-2004, 03:35 PM
#57
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Re: What was Pontiac thinking?
Originally Posted by Ramune
I've seen your other posts in other threads. So, the difference between 31,000 and 42,000 is so astronomical that one is a strong seller that can barely be kept on a lot, but the 31,000 seller is doing horribly?
07-26-2004, 03:50 PM
#58
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Re: What was Pontiac thinking?
I know that. Doesn't mean it was a bad seller before its final years, especially when the Camaro sold incredibly high numbers. As I quoted from someone else, what's worse, about a 17% dip insales in it's final years, or 50 or more percent?
I never said the Firebird was more popular. I do, however, believe that there are people who want it.
I never said the Firebird was more popular. I do, however, believe that there are people who want it.
07-26-2004, 07:34 PM
#59
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Re: What was Pontiac thinking?
Originally Posted by Z28Wilson
The 4th Gen was the second best selling coupe in the market all the way to it's demise, but we've been over that a million times.
07-26-2004, 07:57 PM
#60
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Re: What was Pontiac thinking?
I'll chime in here on the topic of sales figures for the Firebird when compared to other cars etc.
This goes to PacerX and others claiming that Pontiac couldn't give the Firebird away. Ok, facts are Firebird sold less than Camaro at lets average it out to 30k units a year or so. Fine, facts are facts. What I've tried to convey in other posts about Firebird is that if it could come back on the Zeta platform, why couldn't it have a business case of only 30-35k units a year? If it's true what is said about Zeta and that it is configurable in many different ways, and will be used widely across almost all GM divisions, thus spreading and lowering the cost, wouldn't it be feasible to have a target production of 30-35k units and still be profitable? Granted, 30k units is peanuts to GM, but it's still a sizeable amount of consumers that probably has another Pontiac or GM vehicle in their driveway based on owning a Firebird, or it at least gets them in your showrooms to see what else you have to offer. I think with that in mind it could be successful.
This goes to PacerX and others claiming that Pontiac couldn't give the Firebird away. Ok, facts are Firebird sold less than Camaro at lets average it out to 30k units a year or so. Fine, facts are facts. What I've tried to convey in other posts about Firebird is that if it could come back on the Zeta platform, why couldn't it have a business case of only 30-35k units a year? If it's true what is said about Zeta and that it is configurable in many different ways, and will be used widely across almost all GM divisions, thus spreading and lowering the cost, wouldn't it be feasible to have a target production of 30-35k units and still be profitable? Granted, 30k units is peanuts to GM, but it's still a sizeable amount of consumers that probably has another Pontiac or GM vehicle in their driveway based on owning a Firebird, or it at least gets them in your showrooms to see what else you have to offer. I think with that in mind it could be successful.