What was Pontiac thinking?
07-26-2004, 07:59 PM
#61
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Location: South Jersey
Posts: 1,873
Re: What was Pontiac thinking?
Originally Posted by IZ28
What else was there to compete? It's sales were still lackluster.
Zx2
Zx3
T-Bird
Monte Carlo
BMW's
Mercedes'
Acura TL or RL (I can't remember)
Civic
Accord
TT
Cavalier
Sebring
Stratus
Eclipse
Insight
Tiburon
Accent
Alero
Jag XK
Grand Am
Sunfire
Saturn's
Camry
Celica
Golf
Beetle
C70
Saab's
Lexus Coupe/Convertible
Pre-2000 Subaru Imprezas
Grand Prix (up to what year?)
07-26-2004, 08:12 PM
#62
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Re: What was Pontiac thinking?
Originally Posted by Last of a Breed
I'll chime in here on the topic of sales figures for the Firebird when compared to other cars etc.
This goes to PacerX and others claiming that Pontiac couldn't give the Firebird away. Ok, facts are Firebird sold less than Camaro at lets average it out to 30k units a year or so. Fine, facts are facts. What I've tried to convey in other posts about Firebird is that if it could come back on the Zeta platform, why couldn't it have a business case of only 30-35k units a year? If it's true what is said about Zeta and that it is configurable in many different ways, and will be used widely across almost all GM divisions, thus spreading and lowering the cost, wouldn't it be feasible to have a target production of 30-35k units and still be profitable? Granted, 30k units is peanuts to GM, but it's still a sizeable amount of consumers that probably has another Pontiac or GM vehicle in their driveway based on owning a Firebird, or it at least gets them in your showrooms to see what else you have to offer. I think with that in mind it could be successful.
This goes to PacerX and others claiming that Pontiac couldn't give the Firebird away. Ok, facts are Firebird sold less than Camaro at lets average it out to 30k units a year or so. Fine, facts are facts. What I've tried to convey in other posts about Firebird is that if it could come back on the Zeta platform, why couldn't it have a business case of only 30-35k units a year? If it's true what is said about Zeta and that it is configurable in many different ways, and will be used widely across almost all GM divisions, thus spreading and lowering the cost, wouldn't it be feasible to have a target production of 30-35k units and still be profitable? Granted, 30k units is peanuts to GM, but it's still a sizeable amount of consumers that probably has another Pontiac or GM vehicle in their driveway based on owning a Firebird, or it at least gets them in your showrooms to see what else you have to offer. I think with that in mind it could be successful.
Got a car with a 10-bolt? Think about this for a minute...
A solid business case could be made that the 10-bolt could have been replaced (or at least upgraded to the G-body ring and pinion) if money wasn't spent tooling up parts for Firebird.
How about engines? Could an LS6 have ended up in the Camaro? Maybe... as long as the Pontiac isn't there...
Or how about this:
We have two big-time bitches about the way GM handled the 4th gens, no advertising and too few styling revisions...
With only one car to worry about, you get a REAL revision in 1998 and lots more advertising for Camaro.
Take all the money spent on the C/E sticker package for the Trans Am and spend it on Camaro and you know what you get? That's right... more than just stickers!
Chevrolet's danger now is the Buick off of the same platform. Chevrolet MUST call the shots on that platform. Even if the Buick is a stunning success for Buick, that means a piddling 50,000 cars for a couple of years. Camaro should be able to bring in 100,000 customers for years on end. Just don't let that damned Buick screw it up by forcing Chevrolet to carry Buick's dead weight on it. The platform needs to be financially divorced by car line. If the Buick doesn't sell, don't let that hold Camaro back.
07-26-2004, 09:18 PM
#63
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Re: What was Pontiac thinking?
Originally Posted by PacerX
Chevrolet's danger now is the Buick off of the same platform. Chevrolet MUST call the shots on that platform. Even if the Buick is a stunning success for Buick, that means a piddling 50,000 cars for a couple of years. Camaro should be able to bring in 100,000 customers for years on end. Just don't let that damned Buick screw it up by forcing Chevrolet to carry Buick's dead weight on it. The platform needs to be financially divorced by car line. If the Buick doesn't sell, don't let that hold Camaro back.
This is an interesting point that I think is worthy of further discussion.
Holden is on record as saying that Zeta's primary benefit, is the fact that it is so flexible. But from what I understand, all that flexibility is no free lunch. Because Zeta is being designed as the basis for a number of products....ALL will be compromised because of it. There will be penalties in the form of rigidity and weight for everyone.
BTW PX, do you think that Chevy will end up calling it's own shots without sacrificing too much?
07-26-2004, 09:52 PM
#64
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Re: What was Pontiac thinking?
Originally Posted by Z284ever
BTW PX, do you think that Chevy will end up calling it's own shots without sacrificing too much?
Well, a couple of things scare me personally. First, the idea that Buick is going to undergo a Cadillac-like ressurection might be an impediment. Second, who's gonna put their nuts on the line to tell Buick to get bent? Third, let's say for the sake of argument that all of this name stuff is a ploy to keep the car under wraps... the problem with smoke is that there's a fire somewhere, where exactly it is could be the problem.
GM is struggling mightily, at least in the press, to keep the car's name under the table. Now, is that because of the CAW/Canada issues or because the car may move a long way away from what Camaro owners expect?
It's an interesting question. This board in particular takes some pretty heavy pot-shots at GM for affronts they perceive from the 4th gen cars. If the car is the antithesis of what a Camaro "should" be you can expect the screaming to reach a pitch heretofore unheard of.
My hope is that a fire-breathing GM Camaro/Chevrolet die-hard is given the reins and told to go make a car that blows everything else in it's segment out of the water in every respect and will refuse to accept anything less.
That's the attitude I think that's needed. Unfortunately, that is a VERY "Type A" personality attribute and method of operation and being too "Type-A" is a career-ender.
In the end, I guess I'm being courageous with someone else's career, but I hope that that person is not only out there, but in a position at the right time to strike.
Have any of you read Zora's little memo to the rest of GM way back when about how GM needed to turn the small block, and particularly the Corvette into the "King of the Hill" and take the aftermarket and hot-rodders away from Ford?
That took some serious guts, from a guy who had lots to lose.
That memo oughta be required reading EVERY MONDAY at GM. You show up, get your coffee and have to read the memo before you can log into your computer. At lunch, Sloan's "we're gonna kick everybody's *** at EVERYTHING" quote oughta be flashed across everybody's screen.
In the end, the most important thing about being General Motors is not the fact that GM is currently making this much money, or that GM is currently in so-and-so position relative to the rest of the market. The important thing is a United States Marine like attitude that says:
"You know what, dammit, we're the biggest car company in the world. On top of that, we're the best."
The important part of Marine Boot Camp is not the part where they teach you how to shoot or drill, the important part about Boot Camp is the part where they get you to realize that you're going to become one of the best, that Marines are the best because they act like, and believe, they're the best.
Lutz had that attitude at one point in his life for sure, he was a Marine pilot. The part that needs to happen now is that the attitude mentioned has to be shown BY EXAMPLE at every level of the organization and thereby becomes not just part of the culture, but THE culture.
If that day comes, then we'll have our beloved car back, along with an avalanche of others that we want. C6 and CTSV show glimmers of that...
Last edited by PacerX; 07-26-2004 at 10:01 PM.
07-26-2004, 10:32 PM
#65
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Re: What was Pontiac thinking?
Originally Posted by PacerX
My hope is that a fire-breathing GM Camaro/Chevrolet die-hard is given the reins and told to go make a car that blows everything else in it's segment out of the water in every respect and will refuse to accept anything less.
07-26-2004, 11:30 PM
#66
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Re: What was Pontiac thinking?
Originally Posted by Ramune
I know that. Doesn't mean it was a bad seller before its final years, especially when the Camaro sold incredibly high numbers. As I quoted from someone else, what's worse, about a 17% dip insales in it's final years, or 50 or more percent?
I never said the Firebird was more popular. I do, however, believe that there are people who want it.
I never said the Firebird was more popular. I do, however, believe that there are people who want it.
Originally Posted by Last of a Breed
I'll chime in here on the topic of sales figures for the Firebird when compared to other cars etc.
This goes to PacerX and others claiming that Pontiac couldn't give the Firebird away. Ok, facts are Firebird sold less than Camaro at lets average it out to 30k units a year or so. Fine, facts are facts. What I've tried to convey in other posts about Firebird is that if it could come back on the Zeta platform, why couldn't it have a business case of only 30-35k units a year? If it's true what is said about Zeta and that it is configurable in many different ways, and will be used widely across almost all GM divisions, thus spreading and lowering the cost, wouldn't it be feasible to have a target production of 30-35k units and still be profitable? Granted, 30k units is peanuts to GM, but it's still a sizeable amount of consumers that probably has another Pontiac or GM vehicle in their driveway based on owning a Firebird, or it at least gets them in your showrooms to see what else you have to offer. I think with that in mind it could be successful.
This goes to PacerX and others claiming that Pontiac couldn't give the Firebird away. Ok, facts are Firebird sold less than Camaro at lets average it out to 30k units a year or so. Fine, facts are facts. What I've tried to convey in other posts about Firebird is that if it could come back on the Zeta platform, why couldn't it have a business case of only 30-35k units a year? If it's true what is said about Zeta and that it is configurable in many different ways, and will be used widely across almost all GM divisions, thus spreading and lowering the cost, wouldn't it be feasible to have a target production of 30-35k units and still be profitable? Granted, 30k units is peanuts to GM, but it's still a sizeable amount of consumers that probably has another Pontiac or GM vehicle in their driveway based on owning a Firebird, or it at least gets them in your showrooms to see what else you have to offer. I think with that in mind it could be successful.
1. Firebird's sales were steady, right to the very end.
2. Firebird fans tend to be more "devoted" to the brand than Camaro owners (I know I'll get flamed for that one, but it's none the less true).
3. Pontiac had FAR more pull and leeway at GM with the Firebird than Chevrolet had with the Camaro.
4. Camaro's sales "paid" for the Firebird.
Dirty little secrets involving the Firebird:
1. At Chevrolet, nothing in the showroom can out perform Corvette. No other division has this rule, and Pontiac has used this to create Trans Ams that sent Z28s to the trailer.
2. GM was set to kill the Camaro in 1974, while continuing with the Firebird.
3. The "Special Edition" Trans Am sold the final year had no problem getting approved, yet the 35th Anniversary Z28 essentially was given the go ahead at the last minute, and only because of the efforts of a few diehard Camaro people.
4. 4th generation Firebirds has had numerous front ends, rear bumpers, hoods, and at least 3 different tail lights, despite it's low volumes compared to Camaro, which made due with only 2 front ends (one mandated by the different configuration of the LS1 engine) and 2 tail lights (the SS hoods were designed & manufactured by SLP). Yet, Chevy was stuck with half of the bill.
The honest truth is that Pontiac's Firebird (at least the 4th gen) did bleed alot of money off, and prevented alot of things happening to the F-body. All those different front ends, rear bumpers, and hoods had to be paid for somehow, and it wasn't in the price difference between the non-changing "high volume" Camaro and the multi-changing "low-volume" Firebird. The additional money spent marketing the Firebird, the money spent creating and manufacturing different body panels for the Forebird, designing a different interior & instrament panel, again, all cost extra money that disproportionately came from Camaro.
Back when the coupe market was relatively large, this wasn't much of an issue. However, today it is. You simply can't afford to produce 2 similarly marketed coupes in todays market, and although Pontiac enthusiasts would rather eat dirt than admit it, the Firebird and the Camaro vie for the exact same customers.
Although there will be the few Firebird enthusiasts that won't buy a Camaro if there isn't a Firebird, 90% of potential Firebird customers will. Combine this with the fact that Camaro will pull in many times in new customers than whatever Firebird enthusiast is lost, the lower engineering and production costs, and finally, the ability to institute more upgrades more often (one of the top issues GM discovered in studying the f-body's sales decline) means that the lower production Firebird... at least as a version of the Camaro... is toast.
Firebird's only hope of returning is boiled down to 2 things, and 2 things only:
1. The coupe market simply explodes beyond anyone's predictions.
2. The Firebird comes back as a totally different car appealing to a totally different market than it previously has.
That's not opinion or emotion. It sucks, but that's what the background really is, and it doesn't favor Firebird the way you remember it.
07-26-2004, 11:45 PM
#67
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Re: What was Pontiac thinking?
[QUOTE=guionM]
Firebird's only hope of returning is boiled down to 2 things, and 2 things only:
1. The coupe market simply explodes beyond anyone's predictions.
2. The Firebird comes back as a totally different car appealing to a totally different market than it previously has.[QUOTE]
For the first one, I'm sure people could deal with suicide doors, they keep the coupe look. Obviously, suicide doors are unlikely to bring the car back, as the coupe market is unlikely to explode.
However, if you factor in the second idea, something could be made. A t/t v6 awd ala 3000gt vr4? Give it suicide doors and with the looks and handling, it could appeal to the buyers of the STI and EVO VIII. I'd be all over something like that. Hell, being an American car, it wouldn't have to be bound to the rating of 276 or whatever HP. While that would mean you're regular birds will all be V6's, that one bird would be awesome.
However, this 4-banger, 2-seater stuff... well, I'd prefer it stay dead.
Hmm... maybe Pontiac should take a poll, GTO or Firebird... (I'll keep dreaming.)
Firebird's only hope of returning is boiled down to 2 things, and 2 things only:
1. The coupe market simply explodes beyond anyone's predictions.
2. The Firebird comes back as a totally different car appealing to a totally different market than it previously has.[QUOTE]
For the first one, I'm sure people could deal with suicide doors, they keep the coupe look. Obviously, suicide doors are unlikely to bring the car back, as the coupe market is unlikely to explode.
However, if you factor in the second idea, something could be made. A t/t v6 awd ala 3000gt vr4? Give it suicide doors and with the looks and handling, it could appeal to the buyers of the STI and EVO VIII. I'd be all over something like that. Hell, being an American car, it wouldn't have to be bound to the rating of 276 or whatever HP. While that would mean you're regular birds will all be V6's, that one bird would be awesome.
However, this 4-banger, 2-seater stuff... well, I'd prefer it stay dead.
Hmm... maybe Pontiac should take a poll, GTO or Firebird... (I'll keep dreaming.)
07-27-2004, 12:25 AM
#68
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Re: What was Pontiac thinking?
I disagree with some of your comments Guion, and I think you know which they are. 
Saying some Firebirds were faster than Camaros isn't quite accurate, those were only special editions (not regular production, except for the later 70's) made with all apparently, Camaro money all these years. Saying thate Firebird owners are more devoted is complete nonsense and the opposite from what I observe.
Saying some Firebirds were faster than Camaros isn't quite accurate, those were only special editions (not regular production, except for the later 70's) made with all apparently, Camaro money all these years. Saying thate Firebird owners are more devoted is complete nonsense and the opposite from what I observe.
Last edited by IZ28; 07-27-2004 at 12:41 AM.
07-27-2004, 12:37 AM
#69
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Re: What was Pontiac thinking?
This is one instance where you have to agree with PX. Leaving out the Firebird is better for the Camaro/F-Body. To the post about all the coupes they outsold, even though those are coupes, can you really consider them competition for the F-Body? And are those combined F-Body or just Camaro?
07-27-2004, 06:30 AM
#70
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Re: What was Pontiac thinking?
Originally Posted by guionM
In FAVOR of the Firebird, the facts are this:
1. Firebird's sales were steady, right to the very end.
2. Firebird fans tend to be more "devoted" to the brand than Camaro owners (I know I'll get flamed for that one, but it's none the less true).
3. Pontiac had FAR more pull and leeway at GM with the Firebird than Chevrolet had with the Camaro.
4. Camaro's sales "paid" for the Firebird.
Dirty little secrets involving the Firebird:
1. At Chevrolet, nothing in the showroom can out perform Corvette. No other division has this rule, and Pontiac has used this to create Trans Ams that sent Z28s to the trailer.
2. GM was set to kill the Camaro in 1974, while continuing with the Firebird.
3. The "Special Edition" Trans Am sold the final year had no problem getting approved, yet the 35th Anniversary Z28 essentially was given the go ahead at the last minute, and only because of the efforts of a few diehard Camaro people.
4. 4th generation Firebirds has had numerous front ends, rear bumpers, hoods, and at least 3 different tail lights, despite it's low volumes compared to Camaro, which made due with only 2 front ends (one mandated by the different configuration of the LS1 engine) and 2 tail lights (the SS hoods were designed & manufactured by SLP). Yet, Chevy was stuck with half of the bill.
The honest truth is that Pontiac's Firebird (at least the 4th gen) did bleed alot of money off, and prevented alot of things happening to the F-body. All those different front ends, rear bumpers, and hoods had to be paid for somehow, and it wasn't in the price difference between the non-changing "high volume" Camaro and the multi-changing "low-volume" Firebird. The additional money spent marketing the Firebird, the money spent creating and manufacturing different body panels for the Forebird, designing a different interior & instrament panel, again, all cost extra money that disproportionately came from Camaro.
Back when the coupe market was relatively large, this wasn't much of an issue. However, today it is. You simply can't afford to produce 2 similarly marketed coupes in todays market, and although Pontiac enthusiasts would rather eat dirt than admit it, the Firebird and the Camaro vie for the exact same customers.
Although there will be the few Firebird enthusiasts that won't buy a Camaro if there isn't a Firebird, 90% of potential Firebird customers will. Combine this with the fact that Camaro will pull in many times in new customers than whatever Firebird enthusiast is lost, the lower engineering and production costs, and finally, the ability to institute more upgrades more often (one of the top issues GM discovered in studying the f-body's sales decline) means that the lower production Firebird... at least as a version of the Camaro... is toast.
Firebird's only hope of returning is boiled down to 2 things, and 2 things only:
1. The coupe market simply explodes beyond anyone's predictions.
2. The Firebird comes back as a totally different car appealing to a totally different market than it previously has.
That's not opinion or emotion. It sucks, but that's what the background really is, and it doesn't favor Firebird the way you remember it.
1. Firebird's sales were steady, right to the very end.
2. Firebird fans tend to be more "devoted" to the brand than Camaro owners (I know I'll get flamed for that one, but it's none the less true).
3. Pontiac had FAR more pull and leeway at GM with the Firebird than Chevrolet had with the Camaro.
4. Camaro's sales "paid" for the Firebird.
Dirty little secrets involving the Firebird:
1. At Chevrolet, nothing in the showroom can out perform Corvette. No other division has this rule, and Pontiac has used this to create Trans Ams that sent Z28s to the trailer.
2. GM was set to kill the Camaro in 1974, while continuing with the Firebird.
3. The "Special Edition" Trans Am sold the final year had no problem getting approved, yet the 35th Anniversary Z28 essentially was given the go ahead at the last minute, and only because of the efforts of a few diehard Camaro people.
4. 4th generation Firebirds has had numerous front ends, rear bumpers, hoods, and at least 3 different tail lights, despite it's low volumes compared to Camaro, which made due with only 2 front ends (one mandated by the different configuration of the LS1 engine) and 2 tail lights (the SS hoods were designed & manufactured by SLP). Yet, Chevy was stuck with half of the bill.
The honest truth is that Pontiac's Firebird (at least the 4th gen) did bleed alot of money off, and prevented alot of things happening to the F-body. All those different front ends, rear bumpers, and hoods had to be paid for somehow, and it wasn't in the price difference between the non-changing "high volume" Camaro and the multi-changing "low-volume" Firebird. The additional money spent marketing the Firebird, the money spent creating and manufacturing different body panels for the Forebird, designing a different interior & instrament panel, again, all cost extra money that disproportionately came from Camaro.
Back when the coupe market was relatively large, this wasn't much of an issue. However, today it is. You simply can't afford to produce 2 similarly marketed coupes in todays market, and although Pontiac enthusiasts would rather eat dirt than admit it, the Firebird and the Camaro vie for the exact same customers.
Although there will be the few Firebird enthusiasts that won't buy a Camaro if there isn't a Firebird, 90% of potential Firebird customers will. Combine this with the fact that Camaro will pull in many times in new customers than whatever Firebird enthusiast is lost, the lower engineering and production costs, and finally, the ability to institute more upgrades more often (one of the top issues GM discovered in studying the f-body's sales decline) means that the lower production Firebird... at least as a version of the Camaro... is toast.
Firebird's only hope of returning is boiled down to 2 things, and 2 things only:
1. The coupe market simply explodes beyond anyone's predictions.
2. The Firebird comes back as a totally different car appealing to a totally different market than it previously has.
That's not opinion or emotion. It sucks, but that's what the background really is, and it doesn't favor Firebird the way you remember it.
I am curious, though. Does Chevy still have that rule concerning the Corvette today?
If it is in effect, why bring the Camaro back when it will have to come under the Corvette's conditions? No offense meant here, it's just a question.
07-27-2004, 06:55 AM
#71
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Re: What was Pontiac thinking?
Originally Posted by GirlsRidePonies
That's a great argument.
I am curious, though. Does Chevy still have that rule concerning the Corvette today?
If it is in effect, why bring the Camaro back when it will have to come under the Corvette's conditions? No offense meant here, it's just a question.
I am curious, though. Does Chevy still have that rule concerning the Corvette today?
If it is in effect, why bring the Camaro back when it will have to come under the Corvette's conditions? No offense meant here, it's just a question.
To the second question...
I've said this before, Corvettes have nothing to fear from Mustangs. This has in the past left enough head room for a fire-breathing Camaro underneath the Corvette. Camaro will always be heavier and won't have the span of technology available to it that Corvette does simply due to price.
Camaro can sell under Corvette's halo, as a matter of fact I would argue that the Corvette is one of Camaro's BEST selling points - 90% of the performance at two-thirds the price.
The final point is the benefit Camaro brings to Corvette...
First, it adds economy of scale to much of the technology found on Corvette, particularly engines.
Second, it "tides over" Corvette lovers until they can afford a Corvette (***raises hand***), and keeps them buying GM. GM would much rather have you jump from a Camaro to a Corvette than from a Mudstain to a Corvette.
The two cars are symbiotic and feed off of each other, making the whole stronger than the individual machines.
Unfortunately, in fighting their own turf, some folks forget that Camaro is Corvette's best friend.
07-27-2004, 11:22 AM
#73
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Re: What was Pontiac thinking?
Originally Posted by PacerX
The rule is unwritten, but solid. It takes Cadillac to get the Corvette's top engine. Pontiac could never pull it off, Buick wouldn't want to, and Chevrolet already has the Corvette.
Originally Posted by PacerX
The two cars are symbiotic and feed off of each other, making the whole stronger than the individual machines.
Originally Posted by PacerX
Unfortunately, in fighting their own turf, some folks forget that Camaro is Corvette's best friend.
HINT: It starts with an "F" and ends with an "irebird".
07-27-2004, 12:16 PM
#74
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Re: What was Pontiac thinking?
Originally Posted by GirlsRidePonies
And which Caddy gets the Vette's engine (out of curiosity-I don't know)?
Steering this thread back toward the new GTO, a guy in a blue one pulled up next to me at a light yesterday on my way home from work. After the nods and "nice ride" compliments were exchanged, he told me that he had just sold his 2001 SS for his GTO. Unfortunately I didn't have time to ask him which car felt stronger in his opinion but I can certainly tell you it chirps 3rd gear just as impressively as any near-stock LS1 F-body I've seen.
I'm wondering what the statistics are of F-body owners jumping into new GTOs?
07-27-2004, 12:45 PM
#75
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Re: What was Pontiac thinking?
Firebird's only hope of returning is boiled down to 2 things, and 2 things only:
1. The coupe market simply explodes beyond anyone's predictions.
2. The Firebird comes back as a totally different car appealing to a totally different market than it previously has.
That's not opinion or emotion. It sucks, but that's what the background really is, and it doesn't favor Firebird the way you remember it.
if that is true then you say the firebird killed the f-body. that is b/s i i'm a pontiac owner and i like the camaro's to but i would 100% rather see new trans am then a Z28. pontiac has allways had better designs then chevy!
chevy is the entry level for GM then (olds),then pontiac,buick,caddy.etc
sorry if you don't like my opinions but they're true. the camaro ss is sweet but the ws6 trans am is even better.how about the camaro not coming back and the firebird returns!! all chevy gots is the vette and thats it
1. The coupe market simply explodes beyond anyone's predictions.
2. The Firebird comes back as a totally different car appealing to a totally different market than it previously has.
That's not opinion or emotion. It sucks, but that's what the background really is, and it doesn't favor Firebird the way you remember it.
if that is true then you say the firebird killed the f-body. that is b/s i i'm a pontiac owner and i like the camaro's to but i would 100% rather see new trans am then a Z28. pontiac has allways had better designs then chevy!
chevy is the entry level for GM then (olds),then pontiac,buick,caddy.etc
sorry if you don't like my opinions but they're true. the camaro ss is sweet but the ws6 trans am is even better.how about the camaro not coming back and the firebird returns!! all chevy gots is the vette and thats it