^ I'm not convinced that the Camaro and the rumored GTO are in entirely different segments either.

FWIW, I've already read some wild speculation that the next next-gen (6th gen) Camaro will be on the Alpha platform.

 

Yes this is what i was suggesting...Scott has even said it, a stock SS or WS6 would and did out perform a base C5 on their road course. And from my experience, in a straight line as well. Z51 or Z06 well thats a whole different story, but the fact remains, you could get vette performance with a 4th gen.

It really doesn't matter, we won't know for another year and a half 6 years is whats causing all this tension..that and some of you just ripping on the last car.

 

Bless you Robert....

Guys, there isn't one person incliuding me here on this website that wouldn't want a high powered, 3400 pound or less, 5th gen Camaro. If you asked me my idea of a perfect performance coupe, it would be an LS1 powered sports coupe the size of the Infiniti G35, the 3200 pound weight of a Corvette, and the price below a Mustang GT. But in reality, it's fairly large coupes that sell. Mustangs are the best selling sport coupes by far. I know my own idea of a Camaro pretty much means certain death. I've seen GM work handling miracles with the nearly 4000 pound CTSv, Chrysler work miracles with it's SRT8 Chargers, and Ford with it's 3800 pound GT500. I am completely confident that GM will have a Camaro that has far higher handling capabilities than the 4th gen. Having driven the VE, I have no doubt whatsoever we'll be in for a treat.


Of course, GM can make a feather weight Camaro that weighs very little. But the question is who will buy it at the cost it would need to sell at? Sure, the hardcore 10% of the 10% of buyers who are in to honest performance and handling over the remaining 90% who are into looks and styling might pay the extra cash. But the whole purpose of the new Camaro is to offer a compelling case to buy the car independent of what promotes that 10% of 10% to buy the Camaro. As long as the V6 Camaro gets fuel economy into the 30s and the V8 has fuel economy high enough not to cause cardiac arrest but a pleasent surprise to potential buyers is dozens of times more important (as it will be and should be) than picking an arbitrary weight essentially out of thin air that really has no significance outside of the person picking it.

GM is going to make the next Camaro as light as posible within the constraints of safety regulations, demanded comfort features and tech items, durability to handle extraordinary powertrain outputs, high performance capacities, and cost of manufacture as is humanly possible.

To think otherwise IMHO is not only foolish, but sells the people who work at GM (or Ford, or Chrysler, or Toyota, or Nissan, or BMW, or....) short.

If something could be done, it would be done.

 

You know....for a 3900 lb car, the GT500 handles and accelerates very well.

For a 4100 lb car, the Charger handles and accelerates very well.

For a 4000 lb car, I'm sure the CTS-V does indeed handle quite well.

And for 2009, for a [insert tonnage here] car, the Camaro handles and accelerates quite well.

Always that caveat there...hopefully I'm wrong, but all of you smart winkie club folks are telling me that will be the case. Oh well. I should just shut up and take it, because dammit, it will be the best that they can do. Every car GM does is the best that they can do - so what makes Camaro different (there's a whole nuther thread for ya!).

When I was a kid, my uncle used to tell me "can't never done nothin". Guess that doesn't apply any more.

Who knows....maybe we'll be pleasantly surprised? Who wants to hold their breath?

Bob

 

My hope in all this is that the normal-everyday-general-public car will come in at some reasonable weight near or just above that of the current Mustang.

Then a year or two later I hope that we get a semi limited production Z28 cut from the cloth as the ZO6 with some additional weight savings measures. If I have to pay a $10K premium over that of a "regular" Camaro, so be it. The line forms behind me.

I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is.

 

What else is left to be said?

It seems that this thread presents two camps.

Camp #1:
Who care how much it weighs. I'm sure GM will make "some" effort to control weight. BTW, I have no intention of buying one.

Camp #2:
I care a bunch about weight. I want it to come in at an acceptable weight for a sporty ponycar. BTW, I have cash in hand and am serious about purchasing one.


Now which camp should be taken more seriously?

 

LOL. Unfortunately it is mostly looks, gucci features, "wow appeal", and a big HP number that will sell the car to most of the driving public.

I should go buy a manlihood extension....err....Corvette, and be done with it.

 

I really don’t want to turn this into a Fourth Generation Vs C5 debate about which is “better” out of the box but what the hell.

With all due respect to Scott, I simply do not believe that, as a whole and on a consistent basis, a stock Fourth Generation F-body is going to consistently beat a C5 in any performance category and that’s particularly true when it comes to handling. Do I believe it could happen with one exceptional stock LS1 Camaro and a dog of a C5, yes…but across the model line??? No…I call bovine scatology on that.

Looking at if from another angle, how logical would it be for GM to build its “Top Dog” performance car with a “Top Dog” price tag while concurrently building a much lower cost car for the masses that would consistently beat its Top Dog and for a lot less money? Can anybody here say such a scenario makes sense?

Have there been model years when the Z28 or TransAm put up better numbers than a Corvette in a category here or there…yes. But you’ll find those examples in times past where there was a lot more autonomy for vehicle teams to “do their own thing” and when it happened, it was usually no longer then the next model year when the Corvette was back on top.

I suspect most of the claims of stock F-bodies “beating” Corvettes to be perpetrated by those who own F-bodies and simply don’t want to acknowledge that the Corvette performs better.

 

Your camps simply don’t work.

First, no here WANTS the next Camaro to be a porker or to come in a an "unacceptable weight" for a sporty ponycar"...this isn't a matter of "wants"; it's a matter of what's possible and at what price.

Second, unless you somehow have perfect knowledge into each person’s thoughts, there is no basis for the assumption that any one group is automatically going to or not going to buy a fifth-generation.

If you really want to break this down into camps, here is my suggestion…

Camp 1: Are those who have some legitimate insight to offer about the likely weight of the next Camaro because they know something about engineering in general and/or the automotive manufacturing industry in particular or both. Some members in this camp may "care" more than other members in this camp about the weight issue overall but that doest not form the basis for their opinion about what is likely and/or possible for the next Camaro. This camp has members who will and members who won’t buy a fifth- gen.

Camp 2: Are those who simply “WANT” what they want and for whatever reason and inspite of whatever they may know of engineering and/or the auto manufacturing industry in general, simply will not accept the opinions of those in Camp 1. This camp also has members who will and members who won’t buy a fifth- gen and in some cases, without respect to how much it does or does not weigh.

 

It wasn't all that long ago that AC/power windows/power door locks/power mirrors/keyless entry and other things were consider "gucci" features as well but how many vehicles can you buy today at any price point that don't have most if not all of those features?

Better question, perhaps, how many Fifth-Gens do you think GM could actually sell without most if not all of those features?

 

Define "long ago". It has been quite some time, I think, especially for A/C. And 15 years ago, I could get all those things in a much lighter pony car. Or not, if I so desired.

But wait - it would crumple the instant someone kicked the tire, didn't have 10 air bags, wasn't the size of a 1994 Caprice, didn't cost $35k, and didn't require the keeping of any faith.

My bust.

Not as many as they need to. I know this. Have I ever argued otherwise? I simply stated that I don't like it. You and those like you keep essentially saying "tough", shut up and deal with it. I keep refusing.

And the circle goes on. At least I don't have to try and prove that I'm smarter than someone else or more "in the know".

Oops...I mean

Bob

PS....I keep waiting to get a good keyboard lashing by a certain individual...be interesting to see if it happens. The fanboys are certainly all here.

 

Thank you.

I often hold my tongue when this example is thrown around but the facts of the matter are (as I understand them):

1) The cars were run on a very smooth track (can't remember where) where the live axle was at no disadvantage.

Would the results have been the same if the course was bumpy like say, Sebring or Lime Rock? Very doubtful. Is this representative of the road or track surface conditions one could expect to see in everyday life? No way.

2) The Camaro didn't have R compounds on but it did have an upgraded tire (can't remember which one) while the Corvette was on stock runflats.



It's been quite some time since this took place and unfortunately I can't locate where I read this information.

 

It’s not mine (and I don’t think anyone else’s) intention to lash out at you for wanting what you want and not wanting what you don’t want.

The problem is that some here seem to want to argue about things that by and large, are not only outside of their control but largely outside of GM’s control as well.

The fact is that idiot politicians, bureaucrats and dirt people will have more to say, overall, about what our vehicles are going to look like, how much they weigh and how they perform than GM or any other manufacturer unless all the manufacturers band together and revolt or unless every customer who would buy a new vehicle absolutely will not.

Since neither a manufacturer or consumer revolt is likely to happen, we do basically just need to shut-up and live with what we get or be willing to pony up the money necessary to buy what does thrill us; Ferrari still makes some good cars as do Porsche (although nothing at a current Mustang price last time I checked).

 

I just read today that the new GM full size hybrid SUVs have an aluminum roof and tailgate in an effort to keep the weight down. The article also stated that GM is looking to incorporate those components into the "traditional" models as well.

I'm holding out hope that we'll be pleasantly surprised with at least some version of the new Camaro.

 

An arguement generally takes at least two, and given that noone that has "argued" in this thread has any control over what happens with the 5th Gen, I would say that your statement (second sentence) applies to all, vice just "some".

A consumer 'revolt' would be not buying the product. Don't think that will happen, for the reasons I listed in Post #130. In short, the car will likey appeal to the masses. I understand that's the way it has to be. Don't like it, but I understand, and always have.

Bob