It also assumes that the structural rigidity that the cradle adds is integrated into the structural design from the onset.

 

At this rate, this thread will still be going when the fifth-gen is released and everyone knows what the weight will be; then I guess eveyone can argue about why it should or shouldn't weigh what it does!

 

The thread is more than just Camaro-focused, which is why I didn't start it in one of the 5th gen forums. For quite some time now, cars have been getting heavier. In the last year, the trend has continued. In the last year, I've seen new versions of the several cars come out, all 100-200 pounds heavier than before. Whether you want to look at 335i, G35, and C350 (all over 3600 pounds), G37 (3700), CTS (4000 in latest C&D). You'll see the same with FWD cars and economy cars too (2900 pound Honda Civic, anyone?).

I consider the universe of RWD V6 and V8 cars as a reality check against the expected Camaro. I wanted to understand how people could expect a 400hp two-door mass market coupe to be lighter than the latest V6 RWD coupes (which are mostly luxury brands due to RWD being a luxury feature in cars) or all-Aluminum V8 coupes.

I think I actually have my answer.

 

What is your answer?

And I would suggest there are few people who expect a 400 hp car that is lighter than the latest V6 offerings, but a lot more that want/wish for one.

Bob

 

... almost 12 hours without a post in this thread. I'm stunned.
Just thought I'd send it back TTT while you folks rested your fingers.

GOTCHA!

 

Pretty simple. Some people think weight reduction is easier than it apparently is.

Yes. Well there are several shades between 'wish' and 'expect', and there is overlap in the middle.

 

Everyone of these luxury cars are heavy for a reason. The people buying them want to ride in quiet comfort. So they are loaded to the brim with fluff. They have all the electronic bells and whistles, sound deadener,insulation,dual zone climate control....heavy heavy heavy.

Dont need it in the 5th gen.
If mine comes like that I will strip it down to the basic DD necessities.

 

Unfortunately the 5th gen's platform is based on one of those heavy luxury car platforms to begin with, so disregarding all of the "bells and whistle" will only help reduce weight so far...

 

Sadly that is pretty much the issue right there.

 

That's just it. It's not just the fluff that makes these cars heavy. A lot of the electronics is standard on every car, and built into the engine, airbags, tire pressure monitors, traction control, ABS, etc. If you look at a 335i, there's really not much in it that you can't get in a Camry. Conversely, the base model doesn't have much more than a typical Mustang GT.

Btw, would you remove the A/C? Power windows and locks are standard on all but the most basic econo cars, and these days, they're pretty light. Would you buy a non-Ttop model and strip out the extra metal that you don't need?
Would you actually strip out the sound deadening?

 

May not "need" it, but it's going to be in there.

The tendancy with cars is to pack as much value as possible. There are things that weren't in cars in 2002 that's going to turn away people if it's not in a 2009 Camaro.

The way I see things:

1. Everyone wants the best Camaro possible.
2. Everyone has their own personal "must have" list for the next Camaro.
3. There is a must have list that Camaro must have to make it in the marketplace.
4. Camaro MUST be priced right and balence performance, handling, and fuel economy in with that low pricing.


With regards to that, and the knowledge that everything is relative to the individual, we need to keep things in check:

* If you make 80 to 100K + per year, you might be predisposed to look at adding a few thousand dollars to the Camaro's price to save a weight without a 2nd thought.

* If you have multiple new or fairly new cars, you're going to view Camaro as a 2nd car, almost a toy.

* If you spend most of your time on a race course or drag strip, you are going to be more predisposed to having a stripper model.

* If you live with BMWs, CTSs, and Corvettes daily, you're prone to see nothing at odds with putting Camaro on a chassis that has no compromises whatsoever.

But every item is unrealistic.

Camaro has to be competitive in price to Mustang. Camaros have always been the price of a midsized car.

Camaro is also likely to be the sole car for many people, especially if their single or youngish.

Stripped performance cars do not sell. If the lesson wasn't learned in the numbers of the base Z28 and Formula Firebirds, then one can look at what people are buying. People who tend to but high powered performance cars almost always go all out on the option list as well. The disproportionate sales of the WS6 and Camaro SS attest to that.

Finally, Camaro is based on a high production sedan. The 3rd & 4th gens were different because their starting point was the Chevrolet Monza which started life as a Chevy Vega... a Ford Pinto competitor. It's not going on a special or unique architecture. It's not a BMW any more than it's a Benz or a Ferrari. It's a highly massed produced structure and car from the General Motors Corperation, that like Toyota, Nissan, Honda, and all other high volume, modest cost car manufacturers shares extensive strutural parts and sub components with other vehicles, and is engineered with a balence eye towards costs.


There's going to be unrealistic ideas, and demands that no other automaker on the planet can currently do. And it's downright silly to refuse to make a car until the ability to do those things get to a point where it can be done. If that's were the case, nothing would ever be done. The logic of "if they make it 3700 pounds, I can demand and push them to 3500" will also play at making 3500 pounds into 3300 pounds, or 3300 pounds into 3200, etc..etc... Next thing you know, it's 2025, and there's still going to be someone demanding that the next Camaro not be made because of something they feel should be done before the car comes out. Ridiculous? I agree. But if one person can demand something that at the moment is impossible or something shouldn't be made, that opens the door to an unending mess.

Regardless as to how much you swear to fight with every ounce of strength you have against strut front suspensions, car weight over 3500 pounds, size, equptment, horsepower, t-tops, or whatever.... things are going to pan out in a way that:

1. Makes the car profitable.
2. Meets current and anticipated requirements on fuel, safety, and emissions.
3. Enables the use of the lightest and toughest materials that can be afforded to meet both durability and fuel economy standards.

I'd bet that 90% of those making demands will come around. And those that don't, if the Camaro is a success then it won't matter if they ever do.

No doubt we ALL want the best Camaro possible, and I'm not going to flame anyone as a not a Camaro enthusiast because simply being here shows that's simply not true (unless you utter the words Front Wheel Drive!). But there are things the Camaro never was, and at the same time, no automaker today can afford to put out an inferior product. Especially, an American one.

Don't confuse engineering compromises with laziness. And don't confuse what is important in your small sphere as something the other 90% of the general public finds important (assuming a fraction of that has any clue as to a point of reference to know any better).

Outside of: "How does it look?....How well is it made?.... How long is the warranty?... How much do I get for my money?... Do I like it better than my other choices?.... Is it a better value than my other choices?.... Does it feel fast enough for me?... Does it get good enough fuel economy for me?.... Do I like the salesperson, or is he/she an a**hole?..." there just simply aren't going to be techinical questions as to exact weight, gearing ratios, etc.. The only thing people want to know is "Does it work".

That's the only group GM, Toyota, Ford, Nissan, or any other volume manufacturer has to be concerned with. We're on the fringe edge. We can express our concerns, but the gold is on the other side of the pond.

 

Correct - it really matters not if I like or don't. I know what I want is about as likely to become reality as John Edwards picking Rush Limbaugh as a running mate, but that doesn't mean I can't ask for it, want it, ask why I can't have it, etc. There are plenty of people out there that will buy a 2 door Impala with "Camaro" stuck on the side of it, so GM surely doesn't need my dollar.

And I'm talking about the Camaro, not the Breck Girl.

Bob

PS....And I still think the thing is going to be overweight, in part, because of too much "bling" crap.

 

It was? I had no idea!

But it makes perfect sense now that I think about it. The 1975 Monza and 1982 Camaro definitely had elements in common.

The Monza was sort of the moral equivalent of the Cobalt coupe today, making the Cobalt SS the moral equivalent of the 1982 Camaro. It only weighs, what, 3100-3200 pounds? Wrong drive wheels though....

I guess the analogy continues -- the original 1967 Camaro was based on the Nova, which occupies the same market segment as the Cobalt...

However, the Zeta is more like the old Chevelle 4 door. The 1970 A-body cars with big block engines were all 3800 pounds and up, unless maybe you got the bench seat, rubber floor mats, radio-delete econo special.

 

Seeing as how the 2008 mustang GT is 3500 lbs, I dont see a reason why the 2009 Camaro couldnt come in at a comprable weight.
And if any of what you mentioned was fluff or unnecassary then yes I would remove it. I never even use my A/C.

 

I haven't seen any tests of the 2008 model, but when R&T tested a 2007 Shelby GT, it came in at a bit over 3600 (I seem to remember 3610). As far as why Camaro might be heavier than the Mustang, that's been discussed elsewhere in this thread, so I won't go into it again.