really lets look at some cars since 1998.. cars that have been around since then

Mustang GT manual.. 1998=3227, 2008=3450, difference=223
Civic DX sedan auto.. 1998=2385, 2007=2690, difference=305
Eclipse GS auto.. 1998=2906, 2007=3307, difference=401
Eclipse GS manual.. 1998=2842, 2007=3274, difference=432
Camry LE V6.. 1998=3241, 2007=3461, difference=220
BMW 328i auto ... 1998=3120, 2007=3406, difference=286


and i could go on and on.. over the past 9-10 years, cars have gained a lot of weight, the Supra if made today would have gained weight as well..

 

See. There's a few flaws in your statement.

I'm not being fooled, it's what my senses tell me... the car is inherently more stable than the car it's superceded. Anyway, your CTS is 'only' a 6 cyl (I'm assuming) but a V8 is a different kettle of fish especially when powersliding out of corners and braking hard from higher speeds... but wait, where on a public road can you treat a car in such a reckless manner?

You say you thought the GTO didn't handle very well, which kinda contradicts your argument as it is a much lighter car - the chassis is nowhere near as rigid as the VE. An inherently stiffer chassis aids suspension tuning - the GTO is not as rigid and nowhere near as stable in balance/ride/handling.

Again, it's about your senses reading the road, not what you've read on paper and keep telling yourself. Your notions are preconceived and getting in the way of your judgements.

 

Correct. Things were much different just 10-years ago.
It most certainly does. Apply current safety requirements to your 1998 vehicle and watch weight and price go out the window.

As previously stated... "current" and "V8". Neither category which the Supra falls into.

However that does bring up a sore subject with me. Where is Toyota's halo car?

 

Yes, and all of those cars have gotten BIGGER as well. The car gets bigger and it gains weight. Hmmm... imagine that.

This is exactly why some of us have previously expressed the desire for a Camaro with slightly tidier dimensions. This is exactly why some feel the new car may cross the line into overweight status.

If the Supra was still around but trimmed down dimensionally like ohhh.... the C6 .... would it have seen the same weight increase your examples did?

I'm no Supra expert but if memory serves, Toyota got roasted for putting little effort into weight savings on that car. Seems like I remember they made some decision late in the game to pull out a lot of the sound deadening and related "stuff" in an attempt to save face. I don't know, it's been a while.

If that car had endured to today and keeping a lid on the weight became a priority, would the car be too expensive? Yes, probably since it couldn't spread that cost out among 100K sales and god knows how many platform mate sales. Wasn't that gen Supra basically it's own chassis (unlike the 5th gen Camaro)?

WTF difference does it make that it wasn't a V8? The inline 6 was likely heavier than the LSx yet the turbo put out V8 type power.

Wasn't the underlying assertion in this discussion that durable IRS underpinnings could not be had at an affordable price point? That is the statement that I'm speaking to.

I seem to recall that their on-again / off-again halo car replacement has repeatedly been the victim of internal politics.

 

Yep. It really needs to be a 15/16 version of what it is.

 

Yeah, I actually stated in another post that the old Cobra had an especially heavy reverse engineered IRS - and EVEN THAT only added 90 lbs not 150.

Oh yeah, my numbers are not internet rumor either for a well integrated IRS. I got them from a long and detailed conversation on the subject, from someone who makes a living packaging and signing off on such things.

 

Interesting list FS. One thing I noticed though, is that every one of those cars hs also grown in size during that same time period.

 

Nope. People aren't going to be waiting 7 deep outside a Chevy dealer, waiting to be called in by Studio 54 bouncers so thy can buy a Camaro. If I don't buy one, no one will replace me. It'll just be one less sale. But I'd suspect, others would be turned off for similar reasons. I'm still hopeful that a V8 Camaro will come in at around Mustang GT weight....but that 3,800 lbs number is the one which came up. And like I said in another post: A 3,800 lbs Camaro coupe can kiss my ***.

Actually, the 535i was about 250 lbs lighter than a VE Commodore - and yes, it drives frickin' awesome.

I used the word "fooled", not because he's not cognisant of the weight difference, but because the dynamics of the new car are probably that much better compared to the ancient chassis of the old car.

 

Lets compare the new C6 with the new Camaro and see what we come up with.
Engine=Both have the same motor
Tranny=Both have the same M6
Length, width, wheelbase are very close
Both have indy rear
Weight of Vette is around 3265
Weight of new Camaro ??????
Projected weight of the new Camaro is over 3600 pounds. Why in the hell does it take over 300 pounds to add 2 more seats???
The new Vette doesnt use anything special as far as lightweight materials go, except maybe the plastic body. I still feel this car should easily be under 3500 pounds, possibly 3400 pounds

 

People need to stop comparing the weight of the next Camaro with the current Mustang. The Mustang will be getting heavier. Next GT will be between current GT and the GT500.

Cars are getting heavier. There are a few reasons that have been talked to death already (mostly safety and increased power). The only way you are going to get a V8 Camaro under 3650lbs is if GM really goes to town on weight savings. I estimate this will add approx. $2k to the base price of each model. And we won't be getting a stripper. The only possibility is the Z28 getting the same treatment as the Z06. If that happens, be ready for an extra $2-3k premium on it. Don't complain when the car is expensive.

I don't want any of you guys to take offense to this, but most of you don't have practical experience with the topics discussed in this thread. Unless you've sat in a program management meeting about 12 months away from launch and listen to a Platform Engineering Director yell about how weight has gotten out of control on his vehicle, you don't know how much the OEM's sweat this.

The horse is dead men. Call a truce and weight (pun intended) to see the production car before we waste more bandwidth. I know there are people sitting in GM tech centers screaming at their monitors...

 

Thanks for the reality check IRE. I have no idea on what a V8 Camaro will weigh, but the "target" weight is lower than the one you suggest.

As far as a couple thousand dollar premium for weight savings on a Z/28 - I'd pay that with a smile.

 

Let em scream. Personally, I rather suspect its more like a head shake, perhaps a giggle, and a "there's another post by that idiot talking about too much weight again".

FWIW....being that it is my money that I'd be spending, I'd gladly pay $2-$3k for a 200 lbs weight drop. And I know I'm in the minority, too.

Bob

 

I guess I am part of that minority too.

 

I am not buying that as far as the weight goes. The Vette has all the new safety stuff and more power, but it has actually lightend up a little.
Other cars have increased in weight because they have increased in size. The new Camaro looks very close to the same size as the 4th gen. I was hoping it would be a tad smaller.
BTW good pun

 

I find it very interesting that the 2008 corvette weighs less than the 1998 corvette despite the 91hp increase, increased safety regulations, larger wheels, etc.