Weight
07-20-2007, 01:25 PM
#16
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: South Bend , IN
Posts: 2,801
I think GM knows full well the issue and concerns around a heavy Camaro . What we end up at Im sure will be their best effort at keeping the Camaro as trim as possible while remaining within the budget allowed . Im sure the people workin on the Camaro want it as light as it can possibly be too .
The 135i and the upcoming turbocharged 09 Cobalt SS interests me alot , Ive gotten quite used to my light go-kart like Cobalt SS and no longer really desire to drive 4th gen/GTO on a daily basis . Going back to stock 4th gen or a GTO , they basically feel like boats in contrast . Im not saying Im gonna rule out a Camaro purchase based on weight until I drive one ..... but owning the SS though has changed my my expectations of a daily driver quite a bit . Despite the fact the new Maro will for sure weigh in more than the heaviest 4th gen , I really hope it wont feel that way . With 20" wheels (
) and 3600+ curb weight , thats gonna be an amazing feat imo .
In general though , yes cars are getting heavier ...but most of the newest GM models , outside the vette , seem to be much porkier than the import competition . Its just a general observation , so I could be a bit wrong there
I will always have my 94 Z to satisfy my speed rush , so Im not too concerned .
The 135i and the upcoming turbocharged 09 Cobalt SS interests me alot , Ive gotten quite used to my light go-kart like Cobalt SS and no longer really desire to drive 4th gen/GTO on a daily basis . Going back to stock 4th gen or a GTO , they basically feel like boats in contrast . Im not saying Im gonna rule out a Camaro purchase based on weight until I drive one ..... but owning the SS though has changed my my expectations of a daily driver quite a bit . Despite the fact the new Maro will for sure weigh in more than the heaviest 4th gen , I really hope it wont feel that way . With 20" wheels (
) and 3600+ curb weight , thats gonna be an amazing feat imo . In general though , yes cars are getting heavier ...but most of the newest GM models , outside the vette , seem to be much porkier than the import competition . Its just a general observation , so I could be a bit wrong there
I will always have my 94 Z to satisfy my speed rush , so Im not too concerned .
Last edited by 90 Z28SS; 07-20-2007 at 01:30 PM.
07-20-2007, 05:05 PM
#17
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Santa Clara, CA
Posts: 3,132
Let's just throw out all the modern day safety requirements so we can save weight! 
Seriously guys, this is getting rediculous. If you just add stuff to a base car, then weight becomes an issue. However, if you engineer a car with a certain target weight in mind, you can address certain issues in the design process, account for them, and limit their impact to overall performance.
Aluminum panels? Maybe for a one off hot rod, but for a daily driven street car? Please no. However I can see some carbon-fiber worked into a slightly higher priced "performance" model.
Seriously guys, this is getting rediculous. If you just add stuff to a base car, then weight becomes an issue. However, if you engineer a car with a certain target weight in mind, you can address certain issues in the design process, account for them, and limit their impact to overall performance.
Aluminum panels? Maybe for a one off hot rod, but for a daily driven street car? Please no. However I can see some carbon-fiber worked into a slightly higher priced "performance" model.
I'm sure that GM will be competitive, but "competitive" in this case is pretty darn heavy.
07-23-2007, 08:46 PM
#18
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: The Golden State
Posts: 13,711
Folks, we've been around, and around, and around this weight issue before. So many times I've long been dizzy from it. I'm surprised anyone is surprised and quite honestly stumped that anyone is still keeping their head in the sand and won't come to grips with the simple fact that: High horsepower and IRS at a reasonable cost = weight!
You want IRS instead of a live axle, that means additional weight. I've gotten into heated debates on this here about this because there's the odd idea out here that a far more complex suspension system that requires it's own independent, self contained substructure to hold it all together is going to be lighter than simply bolting a live axle to a couple of control arms and springs. Something like that is inheritedly more expensive because of parts and labor (let alone making it withstand up to 500 frigging horsepower). The way to bring costs down: more steel and iron..... which drives weight up even more.
Corvette (which has been pointed to every time this subject comes up) is a very poor example of a lightweight IRS car. Corvette is 2 passenger. Corvette has a revolutionary structure. Corvette has unique materials. Corvette is made in ways that are incompatable with high volume production cars. The position that increasing the quanity of a item brings the economies of scale to bear, reducing price in this instance is flawed. The Corvette retails for well over 40 grand in base form. A Camaro will need to retail for less than HALF that. There ain't enough "Economies of scale in the universe to cut costs that much. GM did a study of basing the 5th gen on a Corvette almost 10 years ago. It didn't go very far.
All one needs to do is to look around at all the other cars that have rear drive and independent rear suspension that don't cost an arm and a leg and are bigger than a go-kart in size (like the Miata & it's 2441 pounds). 4 door sedans that carry V8s, rear drive, and IRS that aren't disposable after a modest front end crash (like the new BMWs) are going to be pushing 4000 pounds. Coupes with IRS and V8s pushing the rear wheels....not to mention coupes with 400 and 500 horsepower V8s, rear drive, and IRS are going to start their weight bidding where loaded convertible versions of their live axle predecessors topped out at.
There's really no need to continue to debate on this. If it was possible to create 3400 pound, 4-500 horsepower, AFFORDABLE vehicles, someone would have done it and have it on the road right now. However, Toyota, Nissan, Mercedes, or any other wundercar from overseas let alone here in the US has been able to do this without having a car that you throw away after impact.
If this causes you to not buy the car, I'm sure there's going to be plenty other vying for your place in line.
But it's pretty ironic that many here have absolutely demanded certain things under the threat of not buying the vehicle.... yet now that those things are in the car, you now say if it doesn't weigh what you say it should weigh you won't buy it.
OK already.....Just simply don't buy it and move on.
You want IRS instead of a live axle, that means additional weight. I've gotten into heated debates on this here about this because there's the odd idea out here that a far more complex suspension system that requires it's own independent, self contained substructure to hold it all together is going to be lighter than simply bolting a live axle to a couple of control arms and springs. Something like that is inheritedly more expensive because of parts and labor (let alone making it withstand up to 500 frigging horsepower). The way to bring costs down: more steel and iron..... which drives weight up even more.
Corvette (which has been pointed to every time this subject comes up) is a very poor example of a lightweight IRS car. Corvette is 2 passenger. Corvette has a revolutionary structure. Corvette has unique materials. Corvette is made in ways that are incompatable with high volume production cars. The position that increasing the quanity of a item brings the economies of scale to bear, reducing price in this instance is flawed. The Corvette retails for well over 40 grand in base form. A Camaro will need to retail for less than HALF that. There ain't enough "Economies of scale in the universe to cut costs that much. GM did a study of basing the 5th gen on a Corvette almost 10 years ago. It didn't go very far.
All one needs to do is to look around at all the other cars that have rear drive and independent rear suspension that don't cost an arm and a leg and are bigger than a go-kart in size (like the Miata & it's 2441 pounds). 4 door sedans that carry V8s, rear drive, and IRS that aren't disposable after a modest front end crash (like the new BMWs) are going to be pushing 4000 pounds. Coupes with IRS and V8s pushing the rear wheels....not to mention coupes with 400 and 500 horsepower V8s, rear drive, and IRS are going to start their weight bidding where loaded convertible versions of their live axle predecessors topped out at.
There's really no need to continue to debate on this. If it was possible to create 3400 pound, 4-500 horsepower, AFFORDABLE vehicles, someone would have done it and have it on the road right now. However, Toyota, Nissan, Mercedes, or any other wundercar from overseas let alone here in the US has been able to do this without having a car that you throw away after impact.
If this causes you to not buy the car, I'm sure there's going to be plenty other vying for your place in line.
But it's pretty ironic that many here have absolutely demanded certain things under the threat of not buying the vehicle.... yet now that those things are in the car, you now say if it doesn't weigh what you say it should weigh you won't buy it.
OK already.....Just simply don't buy it and move on.
07-24-2007, 07:37 AM
#19
Registered User
Join Date: Nov 1998
Location: Knoxville, TN
Posts: 3,252
So we should just shut up and accept/be happy with whatever GM gives us? Because, by golly, they're going to do the best that they can do! They know they've got to keep the weight down whilst keeping the price down too, and if 3800 lbs is the best they can do, you can be happy knowing that they....uh.... did the best that they could do! Keep the faith!
No thanks. If I feel the need to comment, I will.
There is an ignore feature that can be utilized with this Message Forum, if you so desire.
Bob
PS...my 88 Coupe was hit from behind at ~10 mph some years ago. I didn't throw it away after impact. Ditto my 99.
No thanks. If I feel the need to comment, I will.
There is an ignore feature that can be utilized with this Message Forum, if you so desire.
Bob
PS...my 88 Coupe was hit from behind at ~10 mph some years ago. I didn't throw it away after impact. Ditto my 99.
07-24-2007, 08:01 AM
#20
Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 439
So we should just shut up and accept/be happy with whatever GM gives us? Because, by golly, they're going to do the best that they can do! They know they've got to keep the weight down whilst keeping the price down too, and if 3800 lbs is the best they can do, you can be happy knowing that they....uh.... did the best that they could do! Keep the faith!
And, why does the Camaro need to be a 20k base car? These days, 20k cars are looked upon and treated as throw-aways. Run the price up a couple thousand, engineer some weight saving into a platform that sharing parts across a gazillion other models anyway, and voila, there's your economy of scale.
If the car wasn't going to weigh in at 3800-3900 lbs, but instead 3400-ish, it wouldn't need 400hp just to feel muscular.
That's just my opinion, though. I speak with my wallet, and I'm just not interested in a 4000lb musclecar. Never have been. I suppose I'll keep my "porky" '80Z, that tips the scales at 3450lbs.
07-24-2007, 08:15 AM
#21
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 3,123
I agree with Guy... this topic has been done to death.
To those concerned about weight, don't just look at GM or more specifically Camaro. Hey, Toyota's new base model Corolla has put on at least 100 lbs as a result of having to pass new safety regs.
If you don't enjoy Camaro, not for its driving, but for the fact that it doesn't conform to your strict weight mandates, then don't buy it.
Simple really.
To those concerned about weight, don't just look at GM or more specifically Camaro. Hey, Toyota's new base model Corolla has put on at least 100 lbs as a result of having to pass new safety regs.
If you don't enjoy Camaro, not for its driving, but for the fact that it doesn't conform to your strict weight mandates, then don't buy it.
Simple really.
07-24-2007, 09:13 AM
#22
Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Chicagoland IL
Posts: 16,179
Subtract Jessica, subtract the enthusiasts who know the performance cost of excess weight, and subtract all the internet big talkers who don't have any intention of buying a new Camaro anyway - and suddenly that line got alot shorter.
Last edited by Z284ever; 07-24-2007 at 09:27 AM.
07-24-2007, 09:45 AM
#23
Registered User
Join Date: Nov 1998
Location: Knoxville, TN
Posts: 3,252
Simple really.
Bob
07-24-2007, 10:08 AM
#24
Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Oakland, California
Posts: 9,710
All this reminds me of the discussion between Yoda and young Luke Skywalker in Empire Strikes Back...
Luke: But master Yoda, you are asking the impossible...
and later
Luke: Ok I'll try...
Yoda: There is no try... Do. Or do not.
I get the impression that several of you are just stubborn and won't accept the fact that you simply cannot have your cake and eat it too. You want GM engineers to come up with a 3200-lb, IRS, V8 coupe for under $30K US when no other manufacturer on the planet has been able to do the same.
We've all got a better chance on winning the lottery.
Luke: But master Yoda, you are asking the impossible...
and later
Luke: Ok I'll try...
Yoda: There is no try... Do. Or do not.
I get the impression that several of you are just stubborn and won't accept the fact that you simply cannot have your cake and eat it too. You want GM engineers to come up with a 3200-lb, IRS, V8 coupe for under $30K US when no other manufacturer on the planet has been able to do the same.
We've all got a better chance on winning the lottery.
07-24-2007, 12:30 PM
#27
Banned
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,943
So we should just shut up and accept/be happy with whatever GM gives us? Because, by golly, they're going to do the best that they can do! They know they've got to keep the weight down whilst keeping the price down too, and if 3800 lbs is the best they can do, you can be happy knowing that they....uh.... did the best that they could do! Keep the faith!
Frankly, what a lot of people seem to want here is Corvette horsepower and weight at a Camaro price - it isn't going to happen and all the whining in the world isn't going to change that.
If you want fantastic performance with fantastic horsepower and reasonable weitght; that vehicle is already available; it's called a Z06; it's really quite a bargin. For that matter, the "base" Corvette which has more pefrormance than most people could ever hope to handle well is really a bargin IMHO.
That aside, guionM is right on the money...it's just that some don't like the message.
Last edited by Robert_Nashville; 07-24-2007 at 12:35 PM.
07-24-2007, 12:43 PM
#28
Registered User
Join Date: Nov 1998
Location: Knoxville, TN
Posts: 3,252
Basically, ain't gonna happen.
He probably is "right on the money" (helps get everybody ready for a hefty car), and when the 3700 lbs Camaro debuts, he can tell us all how "right on the money" he was. Then I'll tell him how I didn't and don't like the message. At least we're all on the same page.
Most folks won't care what the car weighs. Most will care more about heated/cooled seats, a Navigation system, the stereo, the wagon wheels, etc, etc. I understand that - image and gadgets sell much better than a couple hundred fewer lbs. However, a small number of us more hardcore performance types won't, and will continue to voice our opinion. You have to neither read it nor comment on it if you don't like. I personally have no problem with you commenting on it....though I think it is silly that you are essentially telling me to "shut up" and "be happy" about it.
Guess you don't like my message.
Keep that faith.
Bob
He probably is "right on the money" (helps get everybody ready for a hefty car), and when the 3700 lbs Camaro debuts, he can tell us all how "right on the money" he was. Then I'll tell him how I didn't and don't like the message. At least we're all on the same page.
Most folks won't care what the car weighs. Most will care more about heated/cooled seats, a Navigation system, the stereo, the wagon wheels, etc, etc. I understand that - image and gadgets sell much better than a couple hundred fewer lbs. However, a small number of us more hardcore performance types won't, and will continue to voice our opinion. You have to neither read it nor comment on it if you don't like. I personally have no problem with you commenting on it....though I think it is silly that you are essentially telling me to "shut up" and "be happy" about it.
Guess you don't like my message.
Keep that faith.
Bob
07-24-2007, 12:44 PM
#29
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: O-Town
Posts: 1,817
If you want low weight and IRS, look at BMW and Mercedes. They use exotic materials to keep the weight down. By doing that your still paying 30k-40k for a 3 series. If you want a Mustang GT competitor to cost the same, I guess you can have your cake and eat it too.
07-24-2007, 02:03 PM
#30
Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Chicagoland IL
Posts: 16,179
Basically...yes.
Frankly, what a lot of people seem to want here is Corvette horsepower and weight at a Camaro price - it isn't going to happen and all the whining in the world isn't going to change that.
If you want fantastic performance with fantastic horsepower and reasonable weitght; that vehicle is already available; it's called a Z06; it's really quite a bargin. For that matter, the "base" Corvette which has more pefrormance than most people could ever hope to handle well is really a bargin IMHO.
That aside, guionM is right on the money...it's just that some don't like the message.
Frankly, what a lot of people seem to want here is Corvette horsepower and weight at a Camaro price - it isn't going to happen and all the whining in the world isn't going to change that.
If you want fantastic performance with fantastic horsepower and reasonable weitght; that vehicle is already available; it's called a Z06; it's really quite a bargin. For that matter, the "base" Corvette which has more pefrormance than most people could ever hope to handle well is really a bargin IMHO.
That aside, guionM is right on the money...it's just that some don't like the message.
Is it reasonable to ask for a Camaro that weighs in the same as a Mustang GT? I say very reasonable and completely doable - IF GM wants to do it. And before I hear some more BS about how IRS weighs SOOO MUCH MORE than a well isolated and controlled live axle - please save it, 'cause it doesn't weigh that much more. Figure maybe 25 or so pounds more. The difference in weight between an LS3 and a 4.6 Modular motor is probably greater.
What I think is ridiculoius is this:
People, (who probably have very little interest in buying a 5th gen), telling people who are interested in buying a 5th gen, to stop voicing opinions on weight concerns in a thread about weight concerns.
A 3,800 lbs Camaro coupe can kiss my ***, I'd buy 10 cars before I'd buy that.
Last edited by Z284ever; 07-24-2007 at 02:47 PM.