You'd be shocked to know how much performance a Subaru turbo loses when you equip it with an automatic.

2005 Subaru Outback 2.5XT Limited
Transmission: 5-speed automatic
ACCELERATION, Seconds
60 mph: 7.1
Street start, 5–60 mph: 7.8
Standing 1/4-mile: 15.6 sec @ 92 mph

http://www.caranddriver.com/article....&page_number=3


Yes, that's a huge drop off in performance compared to the sub-60 second numbers that have been published for the manual transmissioned turbocharged Subaru Legacy/Outback. I'm left to conclude that an Avalon (stop laughing) is a hotter ride than any turbocharged Subaru with a slushbox.

To be fair, turbocharged Volvos see the same sort of decrease in performance when you specify an automatic transmission.

I should also point out that all Subarus other than the upcoming B9X SUV - yes, all Imprezas, Forresters and Legacy/Outback and Baja models - are pretty much built on the same platform. So I guess the Legacy can be "forgiven" for being cramped compared to Toyota's "full-sized' Avalon.

 

redzed - Every post I read of yours makes me shake my head and smile because you think you know so much but in reality you don't know ****. You're too busy swinging from the nuts of Toyota and Nissan to see anything else as even remotely commendable. I'm curious, does the VVT-i feel any different than turbo lag? Actually, it must. A turbo will usually spool by 3K rpm where as the VVT typically doesn't switch profiles until 5K (or higher depending on the specific engine). This engine isn't a high revving one so maybe it switches at 4K. Big deal. Besides, if Toyota is the beginning and end of all things automotive, why do they only have 13% of the U.S. market? I'm also curious, why do they struggle to make a modern OHC V6 engine get the same gas mileage as a forced induction OHV V6? Even with an extra gear they barely surpass it. And it still requires premium fuel?!? It's strange but I don't remember seeing a Toyota engine on Ward's 10 Best Engines list lately. Oh, I'm sorry. The Prius hybrid powertrain made it on there last year. Maybe you should stick to the merits of Honda's and Nissan's powertrains. At least they are a worthy arguement.

As a side note, Consumer Guide describes the 2005 Avalon as follows: "News: After some evident dithering among product planners, Toyota will reportedly proceed with a redesigned Avalon for 2006. Though Toyota has been trying hard lately to project a more youthful image, sources say Avalon will remain a sort of "Japanese Buick" intended to keep older customers in the fold after they've had their flings with sportier Toyotas. We'd expect new styling on the conservative side, little changed dimensions, and a powertrain update to the 3.3-liter V6 and 5-speed automatic transmission as available in the parent Camry." I found the "Japanese Buick" comment pretty funny as well as the comment about sportier Toyotas. The only sporty car they've ever made was the Supra! Odd, they forgot to mention how ugly the new Avalon would be. I guess they didn't have to mention it as that pretty much describes all of the more recent Toyota designs. Let's face it, very few people buy a Toyota for their style.

EDIT: I forgot to mention something. While I have not had a chance to drive a new Avalon yet, I have driven the Legacy GT in both manual and automatic transmissions. The drop-off is not as big as you suggest

 

Yeah your right I forgot about the Supra one fast lil car.

 

As a GM fan, I usually just lurk here & try and gleam as much info from GuionM as I can. These debates are pointless. It says a LOT about your maturity to routinely troll GM boards and start flame wars. I get it: you like Toyota's and everything that is foreign. I'm happy for you. You don't like GM? Leave.

Now, that being said, I felt obligated to call you on your quote above. It's pure bull****.

A fully loaded 2004 Avalon comes in at $30,605. 2005? $33,540
Geez, that isn't massive? I see GM recently knocked off $2k from several of their SUV's (a good start & something I'd like to see them continue pursue until they bring their incentives down). That doesn't exactly fit your "massive Detroit-style price increase" model either, does it? You make some valid and credible points, but they are largely dismissed because of the many inflammatory comments and baseless unsupported "facts" you weave throughout your messages.

 

The base MSRP for a 2004 Toyota Avalon was $30,990 with delivery and a fully loaded 2004 was at least $35,390 without accesories.[/QUOTE]


Actually, you're quoting the price of a new higher-end Limited model that didn't exist in 2004.

The price increase for between a 2004 Toyota Avalon XLS and a 2005 Toyota Avalon XLS is only $295. Is $295 too much to pay for an extra 88 horsepower?

As I've said before, GM's price decrease for the midsized SUVs because of the minimal size of the "price cut" (relative to the bloated MSRP) and the industry trailing nature of the product.

 

redzed, you get run over by a Subaru at somepoint in your life? Real owners on tracks are getting 14.8-15.2 with auto LGTs. Motortrend got a 6.5 to 60 with their automatic LGT. Outback is a bit heavier, and perhaps the engine/auto were green with that Car and Driver sample. I'll have timeslips and the motortrend link at somepoint if you like.

And what's the problem with platform sharing? Subaru is a small company. New Legacy is far enough removed to be called a different chassis from the I perspective. In any case, the Grand Am is two inches wider than the Legacy, yet doesn't reflect that in interior measurements. As far as the Avalon goes, it is a much larger car externally than the Legacy, I would hope it is bigger inside!

Getting back on topic, the new Avalon is a fine car for somebody that wants an import version of a classic American luxury car. Good power and room, but soft and numb when it comes to handling.

-B

 

I guess I should point out that the Camry, ES330, Sienna minivan and Highlander SUV are all built on basically the same platform, too. How is that any different? Hell, the Camry and ES300 were about as badge engineered as you could get and the ES330 is only slightly less so. Besides, as you stated you are comparing a car on a "full sized" platform to one on a "mid sized" platform. You might as well be comparing apples to oranges. BTW - I see Toyota took the next step and decided to offer AWD on the new Avalon (NOT!). Yeah, Toyota is waaayyy ahead of the game!

Also, I believe the Legacy and Outback share their own platform. I'm not 100% positive though so if you can show me something credible that states they are the same as the Impreza, I'd have to go along with it. The Forrester, Impreza & Baja are all built on the same platform.

 

MotorTrend just had an article on the Avalon...it was $37,000

Who in there right mind would pay that for a Toyota Avalon when you could get so many other car, '06 330i, 300C, Acura TL, CTS, G35, or for a few more bucks a STS V6

 

One thing that cracks me up, are some auto tv advertisements that advertise their horsepower and it sounds like, "a whopping 160 hp!" and then I usually laugh. To the average person, perhaps this sounds alright, but to any kind of car enthusiast, they should know how rediculous this sounds.

And to add my two cents to the talks on an auto transmission with certain foreign cars, that's one reason I don't have much respect for smaller cars(with low hp). For years, it seems like to me, I've been checking most of these small cars out, and they'll almost always have a manual transmission! I wonder why?..... I like a manual tranny on V8 or something with real power, man, that is amazing to drive. But it's there to improve and/or alter the shifting of the powerful car. The manual in the little car with the tiny motor is there so that you can sqeeze all of the juice out of the little motor that you can! Or at least that's MHO.

 

that's a focus commercial
"with 160 hp, i'm the fastest focus you can buy"

 

In 2004 the XLS was the top of line model. The Limited is the top of the line model now. So once again you are comparing apples to oranges.


The new Avalon has me scratching my head. How is the ES330 even relevent? Consider:

1. The ES330 has 225hp vs. 280 for the Avalon.
2. Avalon MPG: 22/31 ES330 MPG: 21/29
3. Avalon is larger with a more spacious interior.
4. Reclining rear seat, Ventilated front seats, and Laser cruise control are only on the Avalon.
5. From the pics I've seen, interior execution on the Avalon Limited is just as good and luxurious as the ES330
5. Avalon Limited base MSRP:$33,540 ES330 base price:$32,175.
ES330 with all the options:$37,119. Avalon Limited with all the options: $38,787.

The only thing the Lexus ES330 has on the Avalon is the L on the grill, and maybe a slighty better executed interior, but I haven't sat in an Avalon Limited yet, so I don't know.