Time for a reality check on the 5th gen
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 8,504
From: Ohio
Re: Time for a reality check on the 5th gen
Originally Posted by guionM
Some of these posts are going off the deep end, and are actually getting pretty bizzare.
Lets look at some facts:
1. Camaro currently does not exist on the market. It's deader than a doornail.
2. Mustang beat the pants off of the F-bodies.....combined!!!
3. GM is not a charity organization.
4. Bigger engines do squat in the marketplace.
5. The current Mustang is selling in amazing numbers.... with a live axle..... at it's current size.
6. Mustang at last count was outselling all sporty coupes combined by something like 70%.
7. It takes about 5 years to get a car from scratch to the showroom.
8. GM is going to find the cheapest way to produce a good product (if Kappa was cheaper than Sigma, don't you think GM wouldn't have used it?).
Now, some realities:
1. The only way Camaro will survive is to pull in new buyers.
2. Buyers don't care about live axles, GVW, and think Kappa and Sigma are fraternities.
3. Buyers want praticality in there coupes and don't want small cars! When they do, they want 4 cylinder FWD econocars.
4. Just like in the 1960s, the public's reaction to Mustang is dictating what anyone who wants to compete will create.
5. You can call the general public all the names you want because of this, but you matter less than they do in the grand scheme of things because they outnumber you something like 1000 to 1 of Camaro buyers, and you don't even want to know how we compare in the entire sporty coupe market.
6. IF GM were bringing out a Camaro in 2008, you aren't going to change anything now (it's too late), so there's no reason to slam what they may be working on.
Want to demand things? Be reay to accept these things:
Independent rear suspension:
*Heavier or more expensive car.
*Cost to be taken out elsewhere (fewer option choices, struts, quality of materials...)
*Axle hop
*Higher price for top engines (heavier duty driveshafts, differential, IRS components)
Kappa based Camaro:
*The death of a Camaro some people have spent years of time and effort to bring this far.
*Instead of seeing a Camaro in a reasonable time, starting over and not seeing one till 2009CY or later.
*GM not getting involved in the pony car market at all (are you ready to gamble on what management will be around in 2008 or 2009 when approval has to be given?).
*The press of Ford & Chrysler competing in a market that GM seems unable to (think it's bad now??).
*A 7+ year gap in Camaro production (what was a Camaro again?).
If you actually ARE a Camaro enthusiast, and ACTUALLY want Camaro to live and succeed, then you have to accept reality:
*An engine in a box won't cut it.
*Pushing Camaro's return back 5 years isn't going to do it any favors.
*Sending it's price upwards isn't going to make it competitive.
*Making it small isn't going to wash with the public the 5th gen needs to bring in.
*And finally, no matter how many polls we make here, we aren't even enough of a market to justify a change of stereo systems let alone taking Camaro away from it's roots and moving it in a direction contrary from sales numbers and market studies.
If you want to create a whole new Camaro direction, then please allow those of us who actually care about the name and want the car to survive and actually compete with the Mustang in sales and profit to GM (and therefore ensuring there will be future Camaros), to support the one some in GM are trying to get to market now first.
Or at the very very least, lets wait till we actually see what the Camaro custodians at GM have come up with before we slam a car we haven't seen yet.
Pretty please!
Lets look at some facts:
1. Camaro currently does not exist on the market. It's deader than a doornail.
2. Mustang beat the pants off of the F-bodies.....combined!!!
3. GM is not a charity organization.
4. Bigger engines do squat in the marketplace.
5. The current Mustang is selling in amazing numbers.... with a live axle..... at it's current size.
6. Mustang at last count was outselling all sporty coupes combined by something like 70%.
7. It takes about 5 years to get a car from scratch to the showroom.
8. GM is going to find the cheapest way to produce a good product (if Kappa was cheaper than Sigma, don't you think GM wouldn't have used it?).
Now, some realities:
1. The only way Camaro will survive is to pull in new buyers.
2. Buyers don't care about live axles, GVW, and think Kappa and Sigma are fraternities.
3. Buyers want praticality in there coupes and don't want small cars! When they do, they want 4 cylinder FWD econocars.
4. Just like in the 1960s, the public's reaction to Mustang is dictating what anyone who wants to compete will create.
5. You can call the general public all the names you want because of this, but you matter less than they do in the grand scheme of things because they outnumber you something like 1000 to 1 of Camaro buyers, and you don't even want to know how we compare in the entire sporty coupe market.
6. IF GM were bringing out a Camaro in 2008, you aren't going to change anything now (it's too late), so there's no reason to slam what they may be working on.
Want to demand things? Be reay to accept these things:
Independent rear suspension:
*Heavier or more expensive car.
*Cost to be taken out elsewhere (fewer option choices, struts, quality of materials...)
*Axle hop
*Higher price for top engines (heavier duty driveshafts, differential, IRS components)
Kappa based Camaro:
*The death of a Camaro some people have spent years of time and effort to bring this far.
*Instead of seeing a Camaro in a reasonable time, starting over and not seeing one till 2009CY or later.
*GM not getting involved in the pony car market at all (are you ready to gamble on what management will be around in 2008 or 2009 when approval has to be given?).
*The press of Ford & Chrysler competing in a market that GM seems unable to (think it's bad now??).
*A 7+ year gap in Camaro production (what was a Camaro again?).
If you actually ARE a Camaro enthusiast, and ACTUALLY want Camaro to live and succeed, then you have to accept reality:
*An engine in a box won't cut it.
*Pushing Camaro's return back 5 years isn't going to do it any favors.
*Sending it's price upwards isn't going to make it competitive.
*Making it small isn't going to wash with the public the 5th gen needs to bring in.
*And finally, no matter how many polls we make here, we aren't even enough of a market to justify a change of stereo systems let alone taking Camaro away from it's roots and moving it in a direction contrary from sales numbers and market studies.
If you want to create a whole new Camaro direction, then please allow those of us who actually care about the name and want the car to survive and actually compete with the Mustang in sales and profit to GM (and therefore ensuring there will be future Camaros), to support the one some in GM are trying to get to market now first.
Or at the very very least, lets wait till we actually see what the Camaro custodians at GM have come up with before we slam a car we haven't seen yet.
Pretty please!
Everyone's entitled to their opinion, but holy crap, things have gone off the deep end.
There are some things I want and some things don't want... I may get some, I may not get others (Example, I want the IRS, and I don't want a 69-inspired car styleing-wise... looks like I may win the former, and lose the latter... so be it.)
Registered User
Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 2,072
From: Lilburn, GA, USA
Re: Time for a reality check on the 5th gen
I understand what is being said here but you can't criticize people who have genuine concerns about a future Camaro. In some instances it seems like there is a "just accept what you get" mentality and I think that is wrong. I myself am very passionate about a few issues while others don't bother or affect me as much, but I am not going to buy a Camaro just because it says "Camaro" on the fenders. We are a small part of the buying public but we demand a lot from our cars and this especially goes for a Camaro.
It is true that you can't take certain rumors as fact but since we don't have anything concrete to look at, then people are natuarally going to voice thier opinions.
The bottom line is, if the new Camaro does not satisfy most of my needs, then I will not buy the car, no matter how good it is supposed to be for the general public.
It is true that you can't take certain rumors as fact but since we don't have anything concrete to look at, then people are natuarally going to voice thier opinions.
The bottom line is, if the new Camaro does not satisfy most of my needs, then I will not buy the car, no matter how good it is supposed to be for the general public.
Registered User
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,881
Re: Time for a reality check on the 5th gen
Originally Posted by guionM
Some of these posts are going off the deep end, and are actually getting pretty bizzare.
Lets look at some facts:
1. Camaro currently does not exist on the market. It's deader than a doornail.
2. Mustang beat the pants off of the F-bodies.....combined!!!
3. GM is not a charity organization.
4. Bigger engines do squat in the marketplace.
5. The current Mustang is selling in amazing numbers.... with a live axle..... at it's current size.
6. Mustang at last count was outselling all sporty coupes combined by something like 70%.
7. It takes about 5 years to get a car from scratch to the showroom.
8. GM is going to find the cheapest way to produce a good product (if Kappa was cheaper than Sigma, don't you think GM wouldn't have used it?).
Now, some realities:
1. The only way Camaro will survive is to pull in new buyers.
2. Buyers don't care about live axles, GVW, and think Kappa and Sigma are fraternities.
3. Buyers want praticality in there coupes and don't want small cars! When they do, they want 4 cylinder FWD econocars.
4. Just like in the 1960s, the public's reaction to Mustang is dictating what anyone who wants to compete will create.
5. You can call the general public all the names you want because of this, but you matter less than they do in the grand scheme of things because they outnumber you something like 1000 to 1 of Camaro buyers, and you don't even want to know how we compare in the entire sporty coupe market.
6. IF GM were bringing out a Camaro in 2008, you aren't going to change anything now (it's too late), so there's no reason to slam what they may be working on.
Want to demand things? Be reay to accept these things:
Independent rear suspension:
*Heavier or more expensive car.
*Cost to be taken out elsewhere (fewer option choices, struts, quality of materials...)
*Axle hop
*Higher price for top engines (heavier duty driveshafts, differential, IRS components)
Kappa based Camaro:
*The death of a Camaro some people have spent years of time and effort to bring this far.
*Instead of seeing a Camaro in a reasonable time, starting over and not seeing one till 2009CY or later.
*GM not getting involved in the pony car market at all (are you ready to gamble on what management will be around in 2008 or 2009 when approval has to be given?).
*The press of Ford & Chrysler competing in a market that GM seems unable to (think it's bad now??).
*A 7+ year gap in Camaro production (what was a Camaro again?).
If you actually ARE a Camaro enthusiast, and ACTUALLY want Camaro to live and succeed, then you have to accept reality:
*An engine in a box won't cut it.
*Pushing Camaro's return back 5 years isn't going to do it any favors.
*Sending it's price upwards isn't going to make it competitive.
*Making it small isn't going to wash with the public the 5th gen needs to bring in.
*And finally, no matter how many polls we make here, we aren't even enough of a market to justify a change of stereo systems let alone taking Camaro away from it's roots and moving it in a direction contrary from sales numbers and market studies.
If you want to create a whole new Camaro direction, then please allow those of us who actually care about the name and want the car to survive and actually compete with the Mustang in sales and profit to GM (and therefore ensuring there will be future Camaros), to support the one some in GM are trying to get to market now first.
Or at the very very least, lets wait till we actually see what the Camaro custodians at GM have come up with before we slam a car we haven't seen yet.
Pretty please!
Lets look at some facts:
1. Camaro currently does not exist on the market. It's deader than a doornail.
2. Mustang beat the pants off of the F-bodies.....combined!!!
3. GM is not a charity organization.
4. Bigger engines do squat in the marketplace.
5. The current Mustang is selling in amazing numbers.... with a live axle..... at it's current size.
6. Mustang at last count was outselling all sporty coupes combined by something like 70%.
7. It takes about 5 years to get a car from scratch to the showroom.
8. GM is going to find the cheapest way to produce a good product (if Kappa was cheaper than Sigma, don't you think GM wouldn't have used it?).
Now, some realities:
1. The only way Camaro will survive is to pull in new buyers.
2. Buyers don't care about live axles, GVW, and think Kappa and Sigma are fraternities.
3. Buyers want praticality in there coupes and don't want small cars! When they do, they want 4 cylinder FWD econocars.
4. Just like in the 1960s, the public's reaction to Mustang is dictating what anyone who wants to compete will create.
5. You can call the general public all the names you want because of this, but you matter less than they do in the grand scheme of things because they outnumber you something like 1000 to 1 of Camaro buyers, and you don't even want to know how we compare in the entire sporty coupe market.
6. IF GM were bringing out a Camaro in 2008, you aren't going to change anything now (it's too late), so there's no reason to slam what they may be working on.
Want to demand things? Be reay to accept these things:
Independent rear suspension:
*Heavier or more expensive car.
*Cost to be taken out elsewhere (fewer option choices, struts, quality of materials...)
*Axle hop
*Higher price for top engines (heavier duty driveshafts, differential, IRS components)
Kappa based Camaro:
*The death of a Camaro some people have spent years of time and effort to bring this far.
*Instead of seeing a Camaro in a reasonable time, starting over and not seeing one till 2009CY or later.
*GM not getting involved in the pony car market at all (are you ready to gamble on what management will be around in 2008 or 2009 when approval has to be given?).
*The press of Ford & Chrysler competing in a market that GM seems unable to (think it's bad now??).
*A 7+ year gap in Camaro production (what was a Camaro again?).
If you actually ARE a Camaro enthusiast, and ACTUALLY want Camaro to live and succeed, then you have to accept reality:
*An engine in a box won't cut it.
*Pushing Camaro's return back 5 years isn't going to do it any favors.
*Sending it's price upwards isn't going to make it competitive.
*Making it small isn't going to wash with the public the 5th gen needs to bring in.
*And finally, no matter how many polls we make here, we aren't even enough of a market to justify a change of stereo systems let alone taking Camaro away from it's roots and moving it in a direction contrary from sales numbers and market studies.
If you want to create a whole new Camaro direction, then please allow those of us who actually care about the name and want the car to survive and actually compete with the Mustang in sales and profit to GM (and therefore ensuring there will be future Camaros), to support the one some in GM are trying to get to market now first.
Or at the very very least, lets wait till we actually see what the Camaro custodians at GM have come up with before we slam a car we haven't seen yet.
Pretty please!
Registered User
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,043
From: Shelbyville, IN
Re: Time for a reality check on the 5th gen
Good Points.
I'm just waiting for the 5th Gens to come out so the Used car values will drop on a 02' SS M6 Vert... *heeh*
I would look at a 5th gen, but if prices are where I expect them to be (SS $30+) then with two toddlers I'll be buying a 4th gen. But an SS model short of $29- then I might be interested...)
I'm just waiting for the 5th Gens to come out so the Used car values will drop on a 02' SS M6 Vert... *heeh*
I would look at a 5th gen, but if prices are where I expect them to be (SS $30+) then with two toddlers I'll be buying a 4th gen. But an SS model short of $29- then I might be interested...)
Registered User
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 382
From: Round Rock, Texas
Re: Time for a reality check on the 5th gen
Originally Posted by Z284ever
I gather from Guy's post the feeling that the Camaro needs to be an exact copy of the Mustang to have a chance of success. Is that true?
It's just that most successful organizations study history and know that to follow a successful product or service with a better product or service has less risk. Granted, when they follow they try to market it as new and innovative.
Registered User
Joined: Nov 1999
Posts: 2,801
From: Nashville, TN
Re: Time for a reality check on the 5th gen
Hot damn talking about hitting the nail on the head. 
to Guy on this one.
Mmmhmmmm...been saying that for months. Maybe now that Guy has said it somebody will take it seriously.
to Guy on this one.
Originally Posted by guionM
*And finally, no matter how many polls we make here, we aren't even enough of a market to justify a change of stereo systems let alone taking Camaro away from it's roots and moving it in a direction contrary from sales numbers and market studies.
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,000
From: TX Med Ctr
Re: Time for a reality check on the 5th gen
guionM and ProudPony show up with a dose of common sense again.
I'm not Guy, but I'm going to say that a car that is:
Length: 162.8in
Width: 64.1
Wheelbase: 90.7in
is very small, perhaps you could say classic Datsun small.
Length: 177in
Width: 68.1in
Wheelbase: 99.4in
is pretty small; some think the 350Z should be based on this, even though a 350Z is shorter.
Length: 169.6in
Width: 71.5in
Wheelbase: 104.3in
Smallish and only seats 2, but weighs 3247 unloaded.
Length: 182.2in
Width: 71.5in
Wheelbase: 112.2
This is about right; seats 4.
Length: 187.6in
Width: 74in
Wheelbase: 107.1in
Some people act like this is the largest car ever made. About right, however.
Length: 189.8in
Width: 72.5in
Wheelbase: 109.8in
Some people act like this is the largest car ever made too. It is at the upper limit.
All of the mystery cars are real. Four are from Nissan, one is from Ford, and one is from GM.
Hey that is not a bad idea. Chevy can get a deal like they made to sell the Corolla as a Prism.
Originally Posted by Z284ever
Define that for me Guy. What is small, but I guess more importantly what is not small.
Length: 162.8in
Width: 64.1
Wheelbase: 90.7in
is very small, perhaps you could say classic Datsun small.
Length: 177in
Width: 68.1in
Wheelbase: 99.4in
is pretty small; some think the 350Z should be based on this, even though a 350Z is shorter.
Length: 169.6in
Width: 71.5in
Wheelbase: 104.3in
Smallish and only seats 2, but weighs 3247 unloaded.
Length: 182.2in
Width: 71.5in
Wheelbase: 112.2
This is about right; seats 4.
Length: 187.6in
Width: 74in
Wheelbase: 107.1in
Some people act like this is the largest car ever made. About right, however.
Length: 189.8in
Width: 72.5in
Wheelbase: 109.8in
Some people act like this is the largest car ever made too. It is at the upper limit.
All of the mystery cars are real. Four are from Nissan, one is from Ford, and one is from GM.
And one question for everyone...
I gather from Guy's post the feeling that the Camaro needs to be an exact copy of the Mustang to have a chance of success. Is that true?
I gather from Guy's post the feeling that the Camaro needs to be an exact copy of the Mustang to have a chance of success. Is that true?
Registered User
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 287
From: Orlando, UCF, FL
Re: Time for a reality check on the 5th gen
Originally Posted by guionM
4. Bigger engines do squat in the marketplace.
5.7L and 6.1L HEMI, those are pretty damn big engines and while the 6.1 is more rare and only in the SRT's, the 5.7 is real common and a big seller. Its called MDS and it lets big engines do squat and more in the market place
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,376
From: Sarasota FL
Re: Time for a reality check on the 5th gen
The only thing I have continually dissented upon is that retro = success. I'm all for heritage...maybe if GM had a retro Camaro first, I'd have a better impression of the idea. But coming out with a retro Camaro 3 years after Ford had a retro Mustang out makes Chevy look like a bunch of un-creative "me toos." Think the HHR has bad hype for being a PT rip off? You just wait...
With that said, IRS vs. a live axle is not a crisis. What I really want is aggressive styling, a few basic power goodies, a t or targa top, a V8 and a stick for about $26k. If we can do that, and it doesn't have the blunt-nosed look of the Mustang (last time I checked, sporty did not = a brick for a nose), I will buy one. Without a doubt. I doubt I'm alone in that statement. Consider this...they sold 140k Mustangs in '03. They will sell 200k in '05. So, they gained 60k in sales. Well gee, shouldn't they? This was the first all-new Mustang in TWENTY SIX YEARS, people. It SHOULD sell an extra 60k units! Did it ever occur to some of you that it sells sometimes solely because its a Mustang? News flash...it could have also been a sportier, evolutionary design, and it would have sold well too...
However, I can accept a live axle. I love pushrod engines. I don't need a world class interior...something with the quality of a G6 would be great IMO. I want it to handle great (which we can do with a live axle if needed), go great (which it will), and look great (which it can). That's all. Make it bigger than a Mustang, that's fine too. I actually prefer something bigger, and as guion said a bigger car would make it more practical.
I'm not knocking the 5th before I see it...but that's the thing. I want to see it. If it looks to retro, mark my words...the press will have a field day bashing it as being a wanna-be Mustang, and it will not have nearly the mass market appeal the Mustang did. That's just my .02. And while I think its great to follow some of the Mustang (or should I say PONY CAR) formula, we don't need to carbon copy the playbook here.
With that said, IRS vs. a live axle is not a crisis. What I really want is aggressive styling, a few basic power goodies, a t or targa top, a V8 and a stick for about $26k. If we can do that, and it doesn't have the blunt-nosed look of the Mustang (last time I checked, sporty did not = a brick for a nose), I will buy one. Without a doubt. I doubt I'm alone in that statement. Consider this...they sold 140k Mustangs in '03. They will sell 200k in '05. So, they gained 60k in sales. Well gee, shouldn't they? This was the first all-new Mustang in TWENTY SIX YEARS, people. It SHOULD sell an extra 60k units! Did it ever occur to some of you that it sells sometimes solely because its a Mustang? News flash...it could have also been a sportier, evolutionary design, and it would have sold well too...
However, I can accept a live axle. I love pushrod engines. I don't need a world class interior...something with the quality of a G6 would be great IMO. I want it to handle great (which we can do with a live axle if needed), go great (which it will), and look great (which it can). That's all. Make it bigger than a Mustang, that's fine too. I actually prefer something bigger, and as guion said a bigger car would make it more practical.
I'm not knocking the 5th before I see it...but that's the thing. I want to see it. If it looks to retro, mark my words...the press will have a field day bashing it as being a wanna-be Mustang, and it will not have nearly the mass market appeal the Mustang did. That's just my .02. And while I think its great to follow some of the Mustang (or should I say PONY CAR) formula, we don't need to carbon copy the playbook here.
Registered User
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 9,705
From: Oakland, California
Re: Time for a reality check on the 5th gen
Originally Posted by Killaz
06-07 camaro. Do we really think we are going to see one that soon?
Originally Posted by Kris93/95Z28
As long as what comes to the market is flexible, as in if someone wants to have the look, and a good car, they can buy the V6 model. For me, I won't be interested in anything less than a Z28, or SS.
Originally Posted by SSbaby
My opinion, FWIW, is that if GM choose to mimic the Mustang with Camaro, it wouldn't necessarily guarantee them success.
Originally Posted by ProudPony
A rhetorical question for you guys and others that want to see a "different" approach...
Just exactly how much can you change the Camaro before it's not a Camaro anymore?
Just exactly how much can you change the Camaro before it's not a Camaro anymore?
Listen to the Ford guy people.
Originally Posted by SGT Posaune
Be an exact copy? No
Use the same basic formula. Ponycar Formula if you will. Except Chevy must improve on it where it can.
> IRS is one area they are doing this.
> If Chevy offered a base V8, without a Z28 or SS attached, that would be another area.
> For comparable models, offer a better overall car for a equal or better price.
> Win the performance war in all models
> Better gas mileage
One thing Chevy should do is find out what Mustang buyer don't like about their car; what Camaro owners don't like about their car; and what the general buying public believes is wrong with the Mustang and ponycars in general, and fix those issues. Notice I didn't say they should focus on what the enthusiast crowd wants...
Use the same basic formula. Ponycar Formula if you will. Except Chevy must improve on it where it can.
> IRS is one area they are doing this.
> If Chevy offered a base V8, without a Z28 or SS attached, that would be another area.
> For comparable models, offer a better overall car for a equal or better price.
> Win the performance war in all models
> Better gas mileage
One thing Chevy should do is find out what Mustang buyer don't like about their car; what Camaro owners don't like about their car; and what the general buying public believes is wrong with the Mustang and ponycars in general, and fix those issues. Notice I didn't say they should focus on what the enthusiast crowd wants...
Originally Posted by wrastler
5.7L and 6.1L HEMI, those are pretty damn big engines and while the 6.1 is more rare and only in the SRT's, the 5.7 is real common and a big seller. Its called MDS and it lets big engines do squat and more in the market place
Registered User
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,724
From: Hebron, KY
Re: Time for a reality check on the 5th gen
Originally Posted by Z284ever
Define that for me Guy. What is small, but I guess more importantly what is not small.
I don't want the 5th gen to be as long as the 4th (193.5"). The '05 Mustang GT is 187.6" and that seems reasonable. I assume length is the dimension you are concerned about.
No one is proposing an exact clone of the Mustang. Camaro is has been a response/"copy"/Chevy version of a Mustang from inception, the car that defined the segment. It makes sense that a Camaro will not deviate too greatly from what the modern definition of Pony car is.
Fortunarely, we are experiencing a time when GM is offering a multitude of performance cars. Those unhappy with a midsize coupe can look to the Cobalt (180.5") and Solstice (157.2") with its pending hi-po derivatives.
Last edited by jrp4uc; Aug 29, 2005 at 11:04 AM.
Disciple
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,479
Re: Time for a reality check on the 5th gen
Originally Posted by guionM
Or at the very very least, lets wait till we actually see what the Camaro custodians at GM have come up with before we slam a car we haven't seen yet.
Registered User
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,043
From: Shelbyville, IN
Re: Time for a reality check on the 5th gen
I think the new camaro should have 6 wheels and be able to go out on the lake. Think "Amphibian". That's what *I* want GM............. ...............
...............
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,121
From: Houston
Re: Time for a reality check on the 5th gen
We break down what the 5th Gen needs to succeed here on a daily basis. But I’m going to say the next Camaro pretty much needs to find the “cool factor” in the publics eye.
Corvette has always just been cool.
The new 300s are cool.
The Hemi phenomenon is cool, even though half the people I talk to don’t even know what a Hemi is other than their engine.
Of course the new Mustang has the cool factor.
I could go on but I’ll get to the point.
Like its been repeated here many times the buying public doesn’t know about or care about IRS, or motor size or many of the other things we talk about here.
So what makes up the cool factor?
Hot Style- something that turns your head, god forbid even if it’s retro
Daily livability – “roomy” nice interior (its going to have to do better than the 4th gen, though I’m not too worried with the current GM interiors)
Competitive Price- It got to be right there with Ford and Dodge/Chrysler. Period.
Everything else we complain about can be worked into the equation but those 3 marks have to be hit for this car to be hit. I still think the engine is a lesser factor to the base car buyer.
These are the 3 things people look at when they buy a car right off the bat. These make the new owner feel cool. This is where the 5th gen needs to go.
Corvette has always just been cool.
The new 300s are cool.
The Hemi phenomenon is cool, even though half the people I talk to don’t even know what a Hemi is other than their engine.
Of course the new Mustang has the cool factor.
I could go on but I’ll get to the point.
Like its been repeated here many times the buying public doesn’t know about or care about IRS, or motor size or many of the other things we talk about here.
So what makes up the cool factor?
Hot Style- something that turns your head, god forbid even if it’s retro
Daily livability – “roomy” nice interior (its going to have to do better than the 4th gen, though I’m not too worried with the current GM interiors)
Competitive Price- It got to be right there with Ford and Dodge/Chrysler. Period.
Everything else we complain about can be worked into the equation but those 3 marks have to be hit for this car to be hit. I still think the engine is a lesser factor to the base car buyer.
These are the 3 things people look at when they buy a car right off the bat. These make the new owner feel cool. This is where the 5th gen needs to go.
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 16,176
From: Chicagoland IL
Re: Time for a reality check on the 5th gen
Originally Posted by ProudPony
While I certainly don't propose slapping a Camaro badge on a Mustang and calling it a day, I also don't think it is fair to the Camaro name to move it into a totally different class of car either. If that is the desired market - fine, go for it... but do it under a different name and let the Camaro badge RIP.
As usual Proud, I pretty much agree with you, but I just want add something.
Mustang to Ford is a whole 'nuther deal than what Camaro is to GM. Mustang just isn't Ford's ponycar, it is FoMoCo's coupe. Where GM has the Corvette, GTO, G6 coupe/convertible, MonteCarlo, Cobalt Coupe, etc.... Ford has the Mustang.
It must successfully straddle ALL of these segments with one car....the Mustang. Not too big, not too small, not too cheap, not too expensive, not too fast, not too slow, not too pretty, not too dull. It's the whole ball of wax for Ford.
And it does it pretty successfully too.
But GM doesn't need to fill all these segments with one car. So does it really need to copy Mustang in every exquisite detail, every mm, every theme?
I don't think so.
In fact with all this "Camaro must be an exact duplicate of Mustang to succeed" mania, we forget one thing....no one at GM has EVER forcast that the 5th gen Camaro will come anywhere close to Mustang's sales volume. NEVER! Depending on who you talk to, the guess is Camaro will sell 30-60% of Mustang. Maybe there is an opportunity for Camaro to be slightly different than Mustang yet still fall within the same segment. Maybe Camaro can be....ummm....even...better. Maybe...just maybe Camaro can attract people other than just the ones who cross shop only Mustang. Seems like a non -politically correct thing to say around here lately.
Maybe it would be good if Camaro was just alittle different than Mustang,