For the record, I don't find it the least bit hypocritical. The 2001 Mustang shared no sheetmetal with the 1994 mustang. The 2001 camaro shared all sheetmetal except the hood and front fenders with the 93 model and even then it was a step backwards in style.

Besides, my point wasn't that the car was outdated, it was that GM stopped supporting Camaro and its fans sometime in the late 90's. Aside from a few people here and there that speak for themselves - not GM corporate - GM still doesn't support Camaro fans. You know, instead of Lutz dropping comments like "maybe in 30 years" and "if I said there would be a new camaro it would be a hoax" and instead of GM corporate saying that they think Cobalt and Monte Carlo will compete against Mustang they could just come out and say something like the following:

"We have not forgotten about low cost RWD sport coupes"
"We are not planning on leaving the segment empty"

Really, anything...there's a lot they could say without jeopardizing whatever moronic agreement they signed. And that whole thing about not talking about future product is biggest load of crap i've ever heard. GM parades cars out to the press 2-3 years before they go on sale but can't mention something vague like "we're working and a specific type of car"?

Most auto companies would kill for a fan base as large as Camaro's and certainly would'nt cast fans aside and continue to make corporate statements that amount to "just go away already". Only GM is blind to this, and this is why their market share continues to fall.

 

Couldn't have said it better. Everything we get from GM's brass is crap. It's ridiculous that GM couldn't even officially release something vague. "Mustang won't be alone for long!" There you go, doesn't jeapordize the precious Camaro name and lets the fans know something is back. We don't get vague hints, we don't get anything. But meanwhile, the super secretive GM is talking about possible variants of the Aura, which isn't even a production car, just a concept.

So a concept that showed this year that is probably close to a production car we can hear about all the variants of, but GM can't release the information that a Camaro is coming back?

The more time passes the more it seems like they're milking the poor saps who are going to let themselves get strung along and go buy Malibus to "Support GM" so hopefully they'll decide to make good cars again.

 

Nothing more I could ad to this.

I know some will bring out the flame throwers on me for posting in this thread the way I am, but I really don't care at this point. I am pleading simple logic with a bit of opinion thrown in for good measure. If you don't agree, then Flame Away!

I DISPISE the way GM treats the fans of Camaro and the car itself while it was around. One-liners like "wait 30-years" and the "hoax" comment are politically incorrect at best, and downright ignorant to the waiting fans at minimum. If your waiter spoke to you about the fine dinner you are waiting for in these tones, would you eagerly await his next visit to your table, or would you walk out?

In fact, I have deep sympathy for the Camaro and the fans. The car was doomed once it was given to the Corvette team to manage IMO. Double-edged sword... It got the LS1 and phenomenal performance, there is NO DOUBT. But it also got relegated to "second-chair" in the orcestra. It got sloppy seconds, hand-me-downs, and little attention to body and interior from '93 on. Team Corvette was more interested in having a great Vette - first and foremost. I totally agree that the Camaro had other things set against it like advertising, but think about it guys - WHO determines the advertising budget? Would that be the same group of bean-counters and managers that decided the car would be best suited as an "add-on" for the Corvette team to manage? Hmmm.

I don't think ANYONE in the top eschelon at GM gave (or gives) a ratsass about the car... for OVER A DECADE NOW. (RP is NOT in that league of brass BTW) It's been a cash cow, and they milked the ol' girl dry, then dropped her. If they can find an "economically feasible" platform, scavenge enough parts from the other existing cars, and get a decent public response on some coupe in the next few years, I have NO DOUBT the Camaro will be back. But even then, it will be because it is a money-making opportunity for GM - NOT because the passionate fans have begged and pleaded for it. My concern then is whether or not the "new car" deserves the Camaro name (which we have flogged endlessly for 2 years now).

Get this through your heads...
GM (Chevrolet in particular) is keen on the Corvette. It is their halo car. It always will be. First chair is taken, so the next fiddler in line will get second chair at best. Not that second chair can't play awesome and be famous for it, but it's still second chair.
The Mustang does not have this problem. The top eschelon at Ford not only acknowledges the car, but they actually LOVE IT, drive it, go to shows, spend corporate money on shows and racing programs, and proudly crow about it in public. Despite the Ford GT and upcoming GR-1 as supercars, Ford still knows that Mustang is a critical part of is corporate development and stature, and treats it with the dignity that it deserves.

Bottom line? Nobody wants the Camaro back in the right way more than we do in this forum - me included. But snide comments from management, brush-offs from PR people, ignorance from staff at shows, and general "have faith" and "wait and see" comments are all horse-puckey. Maybe you agree with these tactics - great - I'm happy for you. But you should be made aware that MANY other car companies do NOT do business that way these days. They tell customers what's coming, they ask customers EXACTLY what they want, they make the customer an active part of the process, and they enjoy the popularity it creates. (No, not just Ford and the Mustang either.)

In summary, I think it goes without saying that if your business model is broken and doesn't seem to be working, it should be fixed before more damage occurs. The current business-model concerning the existence of Camaro is definitely not working at 100% customer satisfaction IMO, and should be "fixed"... read that as revamped, reorganized, rethought, or whatever you like, but I think GM owes the Camaro Fans something solid, whether it's a formal death, or fact of pending rebirth.

 

The thing is....I understand the general buying public will probably either never even hear these type comments or won't even "get it"...just won't matter to them.

But people who frequent this board ought to know better....(you know, the reason for this thread)....and not be throwing tantrums at every comment that Lutz spews forth.

We have discussed this AD NAUSEUM, to the point it amazes me that people choose to forget or choose to ignore the FACTS of the situation GM has gotten themselves in to.

Does anyone here really NOT know about how & why the F-body died?

Does anyone here really NOT know about who made those decisions?

Does anyone here really NOT know about the agreement with the CAW that defines the terms and time it will take before ANYTHING relating to the Camaro can be discussed?

Does anyone here really NOT believe that IF GM could say something about the Camaro, they would? Even if it was certian that it was NEVER coming back?

Does anyone here really NOT know about all the initial positive comments that were made, only to be withdrawn? Ever wonder why?

Does anyone here really NOT know about all the h e l l that breaks loose when some crumb of evidence is found? Ever wonder why?

Does anyone here really NOT know about this "evidence"?

I could go on, but we've already discussed these items over and again........that is why some of us just roll our eyes when people get their panties in a wad over comments that we should know are just subterfuge.

NO-ONE here would be more excited about hearing something real than myself....no-one.

But I also have learned from all the things the WE as a group have learned over the last few years........and one of the MAIN facts is that you will NOT hear anything until after the terms of the previous agreement are met AND a new agreement is signed with the CAW, (sometime this year ).

So no amount of tantrum throwing and screaming will change that.....

I took to heart what I read....."They hear us, they know they need us, they know they have a gap to fill, BUT they can't talk about it".....yet.

 

Preach on, brotha Doug!

 

Amen.

Some people will just never get it...

 

You expecting to win front page on a GM loyalty magazine or being invited over for dinner at the CEO's house for all this?

 

Unfortunately, they are the management of GM, who fail to understand or recognise the value of some of their biggest supporters.

Now, I know we here are all to varying degrees supporters of Camaro (if not GM), so don't take this the wrong way....

But my question is this - to those who sieze every nugget that can be construed as a clue - when will you give up if GM doesn't deliver? When will you lose faith? If 2005, goes buy and there is no real news? 2006? 2007? 2008?

 

Maybe when they're driving a wheelchair in 2030.

 

Doug, you hit all the nails on the head.

"Kick Z tail out", I see you have posted thousands of times here, but I don't recall ever seeing you post on this section, which leads me to believe you drifted here after posting in "The Lounge". Although the lounge is amusing at times, I tend to avoid the place because I prefer an area where I can have adult conversations as well as get educated by people who actually know a little about what they're talking about (and pass the occasional bit of news).


You should really do a search here, or at least read a couple of stories I did for Popular Hot Rodding.

I understand your point here. If a company doesn't make waht you want go elsewhere. But it's pretty ballsy (I could use a more fitting adjective, but won't) to come to a Z28 fourm, and call the car "busted ***". Although I have issues with my '97 Z, that would be the LAST thing I'd call the car... even if I wasn't at a Z28 site. Why are you here, anyway??

That statement throws you into the Troll catagory.

My Camaro is currently 8 seasons old and has 150,000 miles on it. My 93 5.0 notchback Mustang was more trouble free & my '89 SC has over 205,000 miles on it, but I realize I put way more miles on my cars than most people. Quality-wise, this Camaro hasn't been THE best car I've owned, but it's no doubt probally the most fun! At least I don't have to change the timing belt and water pump at regular intervals, I only have to tune it up and change coolant every 100,000 miles, and the engine's likely to make it 200,000 miles without an overhaul. Can't say that about imports, can we?

That's perfectly fine. I came from Ford when they went downhill in the 90s, and if I were to buy a new car this moment, the only GM car I'd consider would be the GTO (now that Pontiac dealers are starting to live in the real pricing world). GM doesn't currently make a Mustang, a Chrysler 300C, an Infinity G35, or even a Mazda RX8. I'd have no problem going elsewhere, as no one should.

There is not one person here who thought the Camaro was coming back in 2004 or 2005 (you must have gotten that from "The Lounge" ).

The Impala is actually a good car (I rented & drove one year before last). It's actually a pretty tossable car, and pretty peppy. I can only imagine what the supercharged SS is like. There's actually kids buying them (insurence is dirt cheap!) and throwing dubs on them, and the car actually looks pretty good (for a change ).

For those people who think Impala was always a mid-90's muscle car or that most 60's Impalas were SS409s or 454s are disappointed. Impala is & was a low priced roomy family car. My parents had 3 when I was growing up (a '62 a '70, & a '72), Police departments & fleet buyers bought them in droves in the 80s.

I wouldn't buy an Impala for myself, but this is the type of car the buying public favors.

 

AMEN to that and thank you for posting!

 

I'm here because I've been here for a long time, and I don't care to leave now. I've posted in here before, (guess you don't remember our police vehicle debate) I just don't live in here because it's the same stuff over and over... People whining about the car being gone day after day and wondering when it'll come back.

Just out of curiosity... How many of you guys would call the Impala a good car if Toyota made it? The thing is, everyone in here excuses every problem with GM because they're so in love with what the company used to be. So everything they do is accepted as the best move, every car they touch becomes the best car ever, and any car stacked next to a GM car automatically is unworthy. A car that would otherwise be condemned as a silly or "gay" car if made by any other company, becomes gold when it's wearing a bowtie. The Impala, a car that would otherwise be considered mediocre if built by any other company, is widely accepted as a cool car on this site. WTH.

My K5 is closing fast on 400K miles. I've yet to see any GM car made in the last 15 years that could EVER get even close to that. That's the problem, their trucks are built decently well, but they put no care at how they build their cars. You can tell that GM knows their trucks are the bread and butter, so they take care of that customer.

My 'crappy little' Tercel got up there in the miles, with not so much as a single issue. And I might add, the damn thing didn't even have a single squeek or rattle.

It's like Ford and the P71. Sure, they take care of their police customers very well. But the damn cars are made at the exact same plant... Why is every P71 I drive is built like a tank, and every P66 is a weak piece of crap? It's deeper than suspension and accessories, because it's just plain old crappy build.

 

Actually, I think the Impala would be recieved quite well if it wore a Toyota badge. I'm going to be perfectly honest, what does the Camry offer over the Impala besides that ol' "better quality/reliability" perception? Where does the Camry have it over the Impy in spades? Educate me, with specific examples. Not just opinion, not just "well it's a 'Yoda it's more reliable."

I've been very critical of GM in the past. I'm dissapointed Chevy has sunk to "PT Cruiser ripoff" with the HHR. I feel the truck interiors are a joke compared to the newer competition. I think Pontiac screwed up when they toned the Grand Am replacement down to downright subtle, and they've horribly screwed up the G6 launch as well (the line has so many problems right now, from brakes to air and water leaks to electrical problems.....) No, GM deserves criticism in areas, but that's because I don't understand why those things are the way they are. If you've payed attention around here you would know why the Camaro is in the situation it's in.

That's a pretty interesting generalization. Everyone raves about how many miles you can put on a Honda 4 cylinder, and that's fine if you don't mind changing the timing belt every 50,000 miles. Doesn't seem like "normal maintanance" to me but whatever....

 

So then why ARE you here? You CLEARLY are not contributing to a SOLUTION to that proclaimed problem.

What if...what if...

Toyota doesn't make the Impala. GM doesn't make the Tercel. Not much of a point to the question.

What exactly do you expect? Do you know what kind of site this is? You aren't very observant, because people come to this site because they like GM cars. Which goes back to people asking why you are even here. Don't you feel a bit out of place? When you come here slamming the things that other people come here to support, you will get little to no agreement.

Common sense, young man.

Add that to being a little less ignorant and a little more observant, and you will see that GM takes heat from the people here as well. It has been mentioned before that Daimler Chrysler had a car that was recalled because the ****ING WHEEL FELL OFF WHILE GOING DOWN THE ROAD. It was never mentioned much here, but it was at the same time that GM had a much less severe problem (ie. not one that could kill dozens of people inside of one indident) and GM was getting crucified by the people here. It goes both ways. MOST people here have an open mind and don't try to force a change in the world by arguing on a wbe site about it, or at the least being ignorant to facts.

Ever heard the name "J.D. Power"?

That's great! Go find a Tercel site. Go find a K5 site. Go find a Scion site.

At least go back to the Lounge.

 

I'll go wherever I want. And while you're talking about reasons for being here, one of them was not to blow sunshine up your ***.

I come to this board because I like it. One of the rules isn't to agree with BlackMetal.

Yep, I've noticed some people in here that call it like it is. But there's the ever present faction that will always wear rose colored glasses.