Thanks for posting those links ProudPony. I had forgotten how anemic Mustang II's styling and powertrains were. Still amazes me that they sold so many.

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Mark

94 Z28, Red, A4, 3:23
Lone Mods--LPE CAI, !Lapeer Dragway.

Best time: 14.658 @ 95.1
with SES light on and Driver off! (First and only time at track)

The F-body will NEVER die.

 

Lame or not...they seem to be selling as fast as they can be bolted together. BTW, I know afew people who spent similar money on loaded SS's.

For a number of reasons, I suppose, the days of walking into your local Chevy or Ford dealer....and plunking down your $16-$20K for a V8 RWD performance car are OVER.

Personally....I've come to grips with that...all I want now is my money's worth.

 

test

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99 Pewter Transam. T-tops. Leather. M6 Only 3 mods. $150 total. True dual cat back. Whisper lid. Ported Maf. Borrowed ET Steets.
12.8 at 108mph. 1.8 60ft 90 degree Humid day.


Newbie's:Thunder Racing 230/224 111lsa cam, Tit. 918 springs/retainers. Asp pulley.

 

How many women you think went into a Pontiac dealer to look at a Firebird and ended up with a Grand Am GT coupe. Thats the whole poupuse of a halo car IMO...to lure people in and then sell them what they really need. IMO the Grand Am GT is more a competitor to the Mustang V6 than the V6 Camaro or Firebird. The Grand Am GT looks every bit as aggressive as V6 F-body, plus its almost as fast and has better ergonomics. One thing you all have to realize is that generally if someone is buying a V6 Mustang, they don't know, or car teh difference between FWD and RWD...thus it plays very in the buying equation. Imagine being a dealer and trying to convince some to buy a V6 Firebird when you have a Grand Am GT sitting there....The Grand Am GT looks like a race car to an untrained eye. Ford has nothing like that in thier own dealers showrooms to steal sales. Maybe the Cougar, but that turned out to be the most mismarketed car ever and is dying this year. Also remember GM has a crap load more 2 doors than Ford, which only currently has the 3 door Focus, Mustang, T-bird. The Cougar and ZX2 aren't listed because they are dead after 02..but you get the point. GM on the otherhand has the Cavalier, Sunfire, Alero (dead after this year), Grand Am GT, Grand Prix GTP, Monte Carlo, Corvette, and anything else I may have forgotten. Very seldom is the buyer educated on drivetrains and such, so it is much hard for a GM slaes person to sell 2 door F-bodies then it would be for a Ford dealer to sell a V6 Mustang.

Man what a rant...

Anyways...since everyone cares so much about the Capri...where are the sales numbers?


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Branden-Founder- GMInsidenews and NewAgeGTO
1995 Firebird White with Red Leather!- 2002 TA exhuast, JVC Head unit, 350 watt amp pushing two 10" subs..
Slow can be sexy

 

The GTP 2-Door is already DEAD. No one in the market for a $20,000 coupe is being sold a Corvette and vice versa. Same w/ the T-Bird.

So your "Crapload" of GM Coupes is really:
Sunfire/Cavalier/Grand Am/Monte Carlo

For Ford:
Mustang/Focus

I don't think there is a crapload of coupes [/i] combined [i] between ford & GM. Today's low cost domestic coupe market sucks. Only the Focus, Monte Carlo and Grand Am have a chassis w/ roots after the 80's.

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Never trust anyone with lots of plants.

2001 Mustang Bullitt GT
2000 Jetta M5
1988 C1500 A3

 

Totally missed my point...

Use 2002 model year..

Take away just Grand Am coupe and Monte Carlo coupe sales so things are even

That would leave GM with the J-Car and F-body and Ford with just the Focus and Mustang.

Now I am guessing that the Monte Carlo and Grand Am coupe sell around 70,000 a year each...very rough estimate..

So you are looking at 140,000 cars that can be sold...now say we go low and only half decide they want another GM Coupe..well that would be 70,000 cars that the F-body or J-car could have...and that's a lowball number. Alot of people who buy coupes buy them because they want a two door...and will have a hard time settling for a 4 door.So if I am in a Ford dealer and want a two door I can have a Focus hatch or a Mustang, no other choices. I am willing to bet alot of people rather than just going to a dealer that has what they want buy a V6 Mustnag because they get talked into it and the heritage.

You go into a GM dealer and want a sporty coupe...well you have all the options I mentioned before, and unless you car a gearhead set on a V8, the V6 F-body generally will comes in behind the Grand Am and Monte Carlo because of ergonomics, space, quality, ect. Also keep in mind the Mustang doesn't hold a space or build quality advantage over the F-body they rate very similar. So then what would explain the huge sales difference between the V6 Mustang and V6 F-Body? GM has at least 2 sporty midsized (Grand Am/Monte Carlo SS) coupes that would be much more desirable to the non-gearhead than a V6 F-Body. Ford on teh other hand if you want something mid-seized and sporty has one option.....Mustang.

Think about it...I am willing to be at least half the people who buy cars would settle for a V6 Mustang "because it's a Mustang", then leave the Ford dealer and look elsewhere. The average consumer is very uneducated.

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Branden-Founder- GMInsidenews and NewAgeGTO
1995 Firebird White with Red Leather!- 2002 TA exhuast, JVC Head unit, 350 watt amp pushing two 10" subs..
Slow can be sexy

 

Most of what the Camaro had going for it was an amazing V8 powertrain. Take that away and you get a big heavy car that's a pain in the *** to get in and out of, difficult to see out of and doesn't feel nimble (sure, the handling limits of a camaro are high, but it feels big heavy and ponderous at slow speeds like on a test drive). I can easily see why Mustang V6 sales would be much higher. Why would you make all those compromises in a V6 Camaro for performance's sake and then get the base motor? Doesn't make any sense. A Mustang is easy to live with - just as easy as a Grand Am ...


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Never trust anyone with lots of plants.

2001 Mustang Bullitt GT
2000 Jetta M5
1988 C1500 A3

 

I gotta add that I agree with Branden about the GP, Grand Am, and even Bonneville in some cases getting some potential Mustang buyers. For a car buyer looking at V6 power in an affordable, easy to live with car, I can easily see why they might go for those Pontiac models.

I also see those same models taking Camaro and Firebird sales in the same fashion... imagine if they were lured onto a lot in hopes of a T/A or Z/28, but just test drove a V6 'bird or V6 'maro. Getting in and out of those two, then in and out of the GP within minutes of each other makes it really stand out.

Werm makes a good point. The same issues we have all heard time and again also made some folks walk away from the f-car - regardless of power choice - and into GPs, Impys, and V6 'tangs.

How we could quantify any of these "lost sales" is beyond me. This has been an interesting turn in conversation though - very thought provoking.

 

I respectfully disagree with a lot of this. There's a lot more to the LS1 FBody to love than the world-class engine. What about how the T-tops provide open-air motoring without the hassles of a convertible? The swoopy, classic muscle car styling? Ergonomic HVAC and stereo controls, including those on the steering wheel? Versatility of a hatchback and folding rear seat? Modern electronics like Passkey, retained accessory power, TCS, ABS, Theftlock?

This hooey about handling... I rented a 2002 V6 Mustang. Its handling was lifeless and numb. Its steering wheel had difficult-to-operate cruise control buttons and nothing else. Its dash pad was free to rattle and squeak. The seating position is indeed higher... this IMHO is a key reason why women buy this car in droves and why the Mustang is selling well... but guess what: not everyone wants that! I like sitting low, like they do in a true race car, and hugging the road and curves.

Slow speeds on a test drive... didn't happen much on my first test drive in 1999! I pushed it hard and the salesman never uttered a peep of protest... he was diggin' it too! Are these cars a little brutish in a parking lot? Yeah... so what? I spend most of my time tearing up freeway ramps and of course - viewing Mustangs through my *restrictive* rear window

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Sunset Orange Met. 2002 Trans Am, DF Lid, FRA, K&N | DFGreen 98 GTP, Insulated SLP K&N, !U!Res, 3.5 Pulley, transcooler
| Brilliant Red Metallic 1990 IROC-Z Camaro, K&N, Camaro SS takeoff muffler | NBM 99 Formula, SOLD in Aug. 02.

 

I agree, and maybe I can say this algebraically:

(4th gen)-(V8)= NO PRODUCT

 

Branden, I see the point you are making and am following your line of logic, but.....

...do you really, really think that if there were no Monte Carlo or Grand Am coupe that GM would have moved an additional 70-140K Cavalier coupes and F-bodies?

Or would the consumer take his business elsewhere?

 

Hmmmm... nice point, Z284ever. A unique twist to what I was eluding to above... trying to quantify those "lost sales".

My humble thoughts on your scenario are that some true-blue GM loyals WOULD stay on the lot and buy J- or F-cars - maybe 25% max.

The majority would struggle with it a good bit, probably shopping around to let price/preference/availabilty decide for them. With Avalons, V6 Accords, Taurus V6 DOHCs, Camrys, 240hp Maximas, Diamantes, and numerous others with "chrome wheels", leather, and pinstripes - there are many chances for GM to lose that potential buyer for the first time. Maybe 50% or so fall into this group - not a certain lost sale, but a likely one.

Then there is the remainder, another 25%.I would count these into a "clueless" category. They know nothing about cars at all. Maybe went to lunch in a freinds MonteCarlo and liked it, so they went looking for one. Since they couldn't find it on the lot (per your hypothetical), they just started looking for a "roomy V6". They end up driving away in a Montana or a Trailblazer because it had the V6 too, it had lots of room, easier to get in/out of, room for luggage and kids, yadda-yadda-yadda.

So, IMO about 60-70% of the buyers would go elsewhere. This seems like rambling, but I swear I talk to people all the time who buy like this. It's almost impulse buying. Marketing people make their living researching and speculating like this!

 

Well i guess the key would be understanding how many buyers choose the Mustang because they have no other choice at a Ford dealer. The V6 Mustang IMO is no better than a V6 F-body in any respect, space, power, handling, ect. To me the only big thing is you sit a bit higher than in the Mustang...but younger buyers seemed to like the lower f-body seating.
What I wonder is say ford a had a FWD (shortened Taurus?) based coupe that looked as racey and had as good an image has the Grand Am GT and more room than a Mustang. I am not talking huge like an MN-12 T-bird or Fox based Cougar..I am talking around the size of the Grand Am or slightly larger. Powertrain would be a run of the mill FWD V6 with 175-200 HP. What would happen?

Well first off the car would replace the Mustang has Hertz's standard mid-sized car. Ford put 40,000 V6 Mustangs in Hertz fleet last year, just because they have no other mid-sized car to use where Avis uses the Grand Am and Alero. in rental car speak the Taurus and Impala are full sized. Avis currently uses GM N-bodies has thier midsized car...Ford uses just the Mustang. I think it is reasonale to say that this new imaginary coupe would take 30,000 of those 40K sales off the bat. Also imagine what kinda damage a V6 FWD car with a performance image (looks fast) could do to the V6 Stang. I would say the new car could easily sell 70-100K which is what the Monte Carlo does, and half if not more would come from people who otherwise would settle for a V6 Mustang.

Ford through lack of selection and fleet sales artificially inflates the Mustang's sales compared to the F-body. I still hold the opinion that if you lifted the Grand Am GT Coupe and Monte Carlo the Camaro would easily sell 100K units ples every year. I have heards salesmen talk women out of the V6 F-body before because "it isn't good in the rain, and not what you need", and instead sell them a Monte or Grand Am, or J-body. That simply doesn't happen in a Ford dealer...all possible coupe coustomers are steered toward the Mustang...

However keep in mind...GM doesn't wanna sell alot of V6 F-body's because they loose money on them...Where the Mustang makes money...so this may explain the sales approach.

I have often wondered also if the reason Ford buried the New Edge Cougar was because it started to eat into the core of female buyers who would otherwise buy V6 Mustangs?

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Branden-Founder- GMInsidenews and NewAgeGTO
1995 Firebird White with Red Leather!- 2002 TA exhuast, JVC Head unit, 350 watt amp pushing two 10" subs..
Slow can be sexy

 

I wonder what they sales figures for F-car/J-car coupe/GrandAm coupe/MonteCarlo are vs Mustang/Focus 2-door are?

....and I wonder what they would be if J-car were as updated as Focus?

 

Back then everyone went into a economy kick, so Mustang was touted as an economy car first and formost.

The 75 Chevy Monza was basically a rebodied Vega, while Ford at least streached Pinto's floorpan, and created a different body structure for Mustang.

Din't mean to surprize you too much there. It's just that in this instance, we have 2 cars that though similar do have some structural as well as appearence differences, sold by the same dealer to slightly different people.

The best modern day example I can think of to compare this to is the Bonneville & Grand Prix with the same end result. One of them eventually is discontinued.