90 was a half production year for the F-Body causing low sales.

No, I don't think it is at all guion, because its F-BODY vs. M*****G.

 

Gotta disagree. Capri was more Mustang than Firebird was Camaro back then. :P

 

Gotta agree with guionM. How were the 79-86 capri's any different then the 79-86 mustangs? They were allot closer then the camaro/firebird.

 

Let's just say that the camaro comes back in 06/07, can that really be considered it's 40th anniversary? shouldn't it be more like it's 36th?

 

How, 07 will be the 40th Anniversary?? You probably mean because it will be the 36th model of the car and not actually the 40th, correct??

[This message has been edited by IZ28 (edited September 08, 2002).]

 

Remember there was no 1983 Corvette either, but this is still the 50th Anniversary year.

 

Had too much time on my hands this morning, so here's a partial answer:

*Mustang sold 1,291,544 cars before Camaro came out (Ford made alot of money because it was just a reskinned Falcon).
*Between the years of 1967 (the first year of Camaro) and 1998 Camaro sold 4,734,253 to Mustang's 6,108,240
*Camaro's best year was 1979 (282,571)
*Mustang's best year was 1966 (607,568)
*Camaro outsold Mustang in 1977, 1978,1984,1985, and finally in 1991.
*When Camaro came out (1967) Mustang sales dropped 133,000 units over the previous year.
*1st year of the gen2 Camaro, sales dropped by 10,000 cars. The gen3 increased sales by 63,000, gen 4, you can't honestly say because of the artificially low production of the 93's (39,000), but the 94s sold 49,000 more than the 91's.
*Mustang's 2nd gen dropped sales 41,000, MustangII increased sales by 240,000 cars(!), the fox Mustang increased sales by 177,000, the SN95 upped sales by 9,000. The 99 restyle dropped sales by 44,000 cars, but sales jumped by 90,000 the following year.
*Mustang outsold Camaro by over 2 to one in 1967,1974,1988,1996,1998,1999,2000,2001,2002 (I didn't include 1990 &1993 because those were short production runs for Camaro).
*The margins Camaro outsold Mustang in order of size): 1984(126,000), 1977(65,000), 1982(59,000), 1983(30,000), 1991(3,000).

Ford has about 4000 dealers nationwide, Chevrolet last I heard about 5000. Though I used to do this along with everyone else here, I won't mix Firebird's sales in with Camaro's anymore.

Firebird till the 3rd gen had it's own engines (even a model of the 3rd gen Firebird had it's own engine...the Turbo T/A anniversary edition), the 4th gen has it's own look & interior, and I suspect that Firebird owners appriciate that their cars as different from Camaros and as Pontiacs.

I also have taken the view that it's pretty lame that even though we have about a thousand dealers more than Ford, we have to go over to Pontiac and add them in to make ourselves feel better. That's like bringing your dad to help you beat up someone smaller than you at school.

 

Yeah and they killed off the Z28 for a while too. However, 2007 will be the 40th Anniversary, regardless of how many model years were actually produced.

 

guionM, as is often the case, I agree with you on letting one model stand alone for production figures. Fact is, if I am going to buy a car, I will pick only one model to buy. How can I go shop for a black "F-car"? Call up a dealer and ask for that... see what you get. Ask for a Camaro or Mustang... now we're talkin'.

Likewise, if you are going to combine all models of a similar platform... then what's good for the goose is good for the gander. Include the Mercury Capris in on the Mustang tab, and let's play "F-bods vs. FOX-bods". Then you can also include the Fairmonts, Futuras, and a few more "FOX-bodies" that came off the same line...
The Mustang II was actually a Pinto, right? And the Pinto was the same as a Mercury Bobcat. All three from the same line on the same platform so let's put those Pinto/Bobcat figures in the fray too. See my point?
SO where does all that get us? It's pointless.

But what about the impact of the '67 to '73 Cougar numbers in this category too! Remember, the Cougar was introduced in the same year as the Camaro and Firebird, thereby gobbling some of Mustang's sales. Cougar was a "reskinned" Mustang for those years - it was switched to a luxo T-bird platform in '74.

BINGO. Every model IS DIFFERENT, even if they are made on the same line. That "difference" is why the buyer chose that model over the "other twin".

5,000 dealerships... WOW! I guess being the #1 car maker has it's perks, eh? Interesting point you made here guionM. Having a 20% higher rate of dispersion through dealers would lead one to think that more cars would be seen and readily available for purchase on GM's side. So based on the sales numbers, do we assume that general preference makes the Mustang buyer "drive farther" or tolerate minor geographical inconvenience to find the car he/she is after? Would really be interesting to see the actual number of repeat model buyers in these categories, huh!

Anyhow, as for the topic of this thread, I do not think for one moment that GM would target a re-entry date for the Camaro based on a potential lull in Mustang sales. My experience has been just the opposite. If the sales remain high, it indicates high interest in that market area, thereby inducing car makers to "jump in while it's hot", not wait for it to cool down. Look how GM did with the utes, SUV, truck markets in the '90s for example. As for the sportscar market, why wouldn't GM get in when everybody else is trying to get in so hard (much less pull-out?!?!) - look at the 350Z, Supra, Cobra, Mach 1, etc. So, no - no Camaro until '07, but due to contracts with CAW, platform design time, PPAP and other testing, and sound marketing - not lame Mustang sales. Just my .02 .

 

Also Mustang is a higher percentage of a dealer's sales.

As a car dealer, not only do you have a car that sells more than (in this case double and then some) the guys across the street, you also have 20% fewer dealers selling this larger amount. This makes Mustang a even bigger cash cow for them.

There are years Camaro has competed extremely well with Mustang, and occasionally won in sales. Because of that, I've recently come to the opinion that reaching for a separate carline (even owners like to think of Firebird as unique from Camaro) is pretty desparate & sad on our part.

 

I disagree. As I said before the names of the cars we are comparing are Camaro and Firebird against the M*****g. The Camaro and Firebird are 2 cars in the same exact class built on the same chassis and nearly all the same, mostly starting in the Third Gen. Combining both F-Bodies is not cheating, they should be combined if you think about it, but if you want to compare the Camaro alone against the M*****G, not any other car, which is how it should be, its had its wins in sales by itself also. So what if a car is built on the same chassis, if its not in the same class as the M*****g, or called M*****g, I don't count it.

[This message has been edited by IZ28 (edited September 10, 2002).]

 

Er...want to explain to me why the 79 to 86 Capri wasn't a Mustang then (I won't even bring up the pre 74 Cougar)?

Is things so bad, and are we so desparate that even with a 1000 dealer advantage over Ford, we need to kidnap Pontiac as well?

Heck, lets combine Caprices & Bonnevilles to beat Ford's LTD. Better yet, let's count the old Malibu/Chevelle & LeMans together against Torinos!

But why stop there....let's combine Buick & Oldsmobile with Chevrolet's sales as well! No.....wait! We're going to need to use Buick to say Cadillac beat Lincoln in sales! Oh, what the hey, let's combine all GM's cars and say we beat Ford, but we won't count Mercury though......that's not fair!

I think there is a reason why the Firebird guys here bought a Firebird. If not, we'd all be driving look alike f-bodies from a single car division... and I'm sure they wouldn't care so much if Firebird returned.

 

I don't think I seem to be getting through here so I think I'll just say no more. :doh: Think your way, I'll think mine.

[This message has been edited by IZ28 (edited September 10, 2002).]

 

I agree with you, we arent kidnapping pontiacs sales, these cars are directly related... they deserve to be counted as one. I mean damn, if you dont agree then what the hell are all you pontiac firebird owners doing here at the "CAMAROZ28.com" site? I'll tell you why, because when you think camaro, you think firebird, and when you think of either one of those, you think of destroying a mustang! I'd elaberate but Im sure you all get my point.


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Actually I will say something else....Exactly. Thanks.