Part of the magic of the original GTO was that you could get that package on any two door Lemans sedan, coupe or convertible for an additional $296.

Of course, if you checked off EVERY option, you could almost double the price.

 

Facts:

1964 GTO: $296 option on $2852 Lemans
1965 GTO: $296 option on $2787 Lemans
1966 GTO: Separate model $2783 base price
1967 GTO: $2871
1968 GTO: $3103
1969 GTO: $3080
1970 GTO: $3267
1971 GTO: $3446
1972 GTO: $354 option on $3196 Lemans

For Comparison:

1968 Chevelle SS: $2899

1968 Impala (not SS): $2945

1968 Cutlass/F85/442: $2617 - 3341

1968 Cadillac Calais (cheapest Cadillac): $5315

1968 Road Runner: $2870

 

TTT

 

Wow...Charlie....


When you're wrong, you suck, dude ROFLMAO


I KEED, I KEED!!!!

 

Yeah, I forgot about this thread. I think this was when I had first heard about Alpha, and Pontiac was going to be part of it in a BIG way.

Pity.

 

Just goes to show you, 3 years is a lifetime in the car development business.

Nowadays, it's relatively easy to find out what direction a car maker is "thinking" regarding product plans 3 years and beyond from now. But until they actually commit money and assign a group to make it happen, it's all just study hall doodles.

Alpha started when Bob Lutz came to GM as a way to create a new 4 cylinder sports chassis spawing everything from a sports car to sports sedans. The car became the limited use Kappa, and 7-8 years later, we're still waiting on the chassis. Zeta was supposed to span a whole line of RWD coupes, sedans, convertbles, crossovers, and utes made here in North America. We wound up with a single imported sedan made from a bit of extra capacity at the factory in Australia. And this plan disintegrated a mere 4 years ago.

Even the new Z28 was shelved a mere 18 months before it was to be in showrooms.

If GM delayed just 6 months before approving the new Camaro, it would likely have never wound up on an assembly line, let alone in a showroom.

So while Alpha program exists (as do other programs in the auto industry), don't read too much into it. No one truely knows what's going to come off the chassis until it's actually decided..... usually 2 years before it actually starts on an assembly line.

 

I remember first reading this thread and how excited I was about the prospect of an alpha Pontiac. GM took their eye off the ball on this one.

 

It would have been Pontiac's last/best shot.

Somewhere down the line, Alpha both got delayed and pulled from Pontiac. It probably wouldn't have mattered anyway. Pontiac will be long gone by the time the first Alphas hit the street.

 

I was driving into work today and there was an Aztek in front of me... so that was a great idea that had to go in production, but a RWD, Ecotech powered, 3 series sized Pontiac sedan gets delayed and ultimately killed...

I need to try to erase Pontiac from my mind. Everytime I see a Solstice, or G8, or GTO, or 97-02 GP, or Firebird, etc. I just get depressed. It kills me.

 

I wonder what might have happened, had there been a huge enthusiast groundswell of support for such a program - like the Camaro got.

Part of the reason I started this thread way back then, was in the hope of igniting some real enthusiasm for the idea, even in some small way. Everyone was somehow still transfixed on the next gen GTO -- which was already deader than a doorknob a year before this old thread even started. Even three years ago, it was obvious that Zeta wasn't going to save Pontiac and the brand needed to dramatically and quickly switch gears to survive.

But the idea just plain ran out of gas....

 

Yeah, the division of GM that "built excitement" could only come up with FWD v-6's and 4 cylinder sports cars- as well as fugly cross-over vehicles. The GTO was a nice try, but too little, too late. The G8 might have turned things around, if it came out a couple years ago- restored the performance image that Pontiac used to have over Chevrolet- Not even a Firebird version of the Camaro available- GM is going down the tubes, any wonder why?

 

IIRC, when you and Guy began to mention that Ponitac was in trouble around 2004 or 2005, I was skeptical. Grand Am's were selling well, a new GP was just debuting, and they had just shown the G6, Solstice, GTO, and GXP cars which answered the critics "clean styling" demands. Pontiac wasn't on "a roll", but things seemed to be progressing nicely. Bob Lutz hadn't been on the job too long, and the first division he seemed to show attention to was Pontiac. Things were certainly looking up, and then it all stopped.

In hindsight, it certainly shows how quickly momentum can be lost. In a company that's such a slow moving animal as GM, there were bound to be some casualties. I wish there had been an enthusiast ground swell of support. Had an actual car or image been shown, it might have helped gather support.

Man, I hope some GM people are reading this thread.

 

What should have been...

 

The auto industry operates in a universe about 2-3 years ahead of mere mortals. Anyone whith contacts in the industry and keeps tabs is also running a couple or few years into the future.

Back in 2004-2005, Pontiac was keying it's new assult on both the expanded G6 line and a new RWD Zeta coupe and sedan. GM started backpeddling on the promised versions of the G6 and froze, then shrunk, then killed the North American Zeta program for Pontiac (which was supposed to get the a Zeta Grand Prix and GTO for the 2008MY).

Once GM killed those 2 lines, regardless as to how we felt about them (Charlie and I have very different views) we both were in lockstep in realizing that with GM gutting it's volume car's potential (G6) and gutting a line that would define Pontiac's excitement (the RWD Grand Prix) and having no replacement and no other plans, Pontiac was all but toast.

At the time I was close friends with someone working directly on the program Zeta at Holden (which by default meant I was aquainted with a few people on Zeta), and knew a couple of well respected automotive writers in Australia. The parameters that the Zeta was being developed and the timelines for US manufacture was part of the program down there, pending final approval which at the time was all but certain and a mere formality.

In retrospect, what we all (myself and the guys at Holden) miscalculated was how desparate GM was for cash, and the impact of the collapse of the large truck & SUV market back in 2005 was to GM North America. At the time, Holden was still a quasi-independent company and was essentially rolling in cash, and the feeling back then was that Holden was finally being given a crack at the US market, and there were people within North America that were giving Holden strong support (while there were obviously people at North America doing everything they could to wreck it).

Now that it's been a few years, I think I can say more than I could before regarding Zeta. IMO looking back, I think Pontiac to a large degree was put into a position where GM had to accept a great G6 and RWD vehicles made by Holden. In a some ways it was the same backdoor intrigue that forced GM to make the Camaro which they otherwise wouldn't have made.

There was no real backup programs for Pontiac. An example. The new Ford Taurus was initially envisioned as the production version of the Intercepter concept. It was to be RWD and and it wasn't to be out till next year at the very earliest. The program was accelerated greatly (it was done in just 24 months!) and for convience, it was based on the Five Hundred's FWD/AWD chassis. With the RWD Pontiac Grand Prix, GM would have normally kept an option that included a FWD sedan as they have done with the Impala. GM did not do this with the Grand Prix, and therefore froze in a RWD Grand Prix replacement... the G8.

Trouble was, GM also planned on continued high sales of large pickups and SUVs. When those crashed (and failed to rebound), in essence, the North American Zeta died. Camaro saw daylight because it was cheap and the hardware was essentially surplus Holden parts, so GM didn't need to establish a whole new OEM system here in North America. Camaro production is low enough that no real additional money has to be spent creating bigger suppliers for Zeta exclusive parts.

My steadfast belief in Pontiac's Zeta was based on the plan that essentially forced GM to produce the cars for Pontiac since there were no alternatives (Alpha was a rehashed early Lutz version of the original Kappa plan, and wasn't serious till the last couple of years since it also initially required a whole new supplier network). Truth is GM went broke before everyone (including largely Holden) realized it.

That left Pontiac without new cars, and made it an easy target to kill, next to Buick (which for all practical purposes is now a Chinese brand being made and sold in North America).

 

What would it take to fix Pontiac .... an expensive family of non-premium RWD cars
What would it take to fix Buick ... bring over some existing international models

Probably an decision for a broke corporation.