About a year ago, centric and I brought out a TON of data, articles, and pending litigation about just this type of thing. OnStar, the data collectors (a.k.a. black-boxes) and the like. There is a couple threads in this forum - somebody else search - I did a ton of the writing!

I am categorically against OnStar in any vehicle of mine.
I do not want to be tracked (and they do).
I do not want to be bugged (and they do).
I do not want my "data" collected without my consent (and they do - on a daily basis now from all GM and Ford vehicles - WITHOUT warrants).
I do not want ANYBODY ELSE IN THE WORLD controlling my door locks, my OBD, my ignition system, or anything else in/on my vehicle (and they do).

Imagine, I sent in my car payment on time, but it was on an 18-wheeler that was destroyed in a fiery crash and my check was burned - never reaching GMAC. As an "incentive" to pay promptly, they disable my ignition system remotely via OnStar comm-link. That very morning, the wife goes into belated labor and we run out of the house and jump in the vehicle, only to find it is useless to us when we need it most.
I know it's purely fiction, but it's really not so far away as you might think. There IS discussion about using these tools as "compliance" aids for car theft, child support, late payments, repossession, and various other areas where law enforcement could benefit from controlling the citizenry.

Speaking for myself only - NO THANKS. I prefer to live my life "unsupervised" and not having to answer to some "power" over me about every little thing that is right, wrong, or even looks questionable.

The stability system thing is OK - go for it. Just ditch the mandatory OnStar.

One last thing - I am SO tired of these OnStar commercials on the radio. What malarky. "Hello, yes, I'm having a terrible day - I've locked my keys in my car." "Glad we could help!"
Were do I begin?!?!
First of all, you should have a spare key on your person - PERIOD. What if you lost them instead of locking them in the car?
Second, the touch-pad (or keyless entry) system doesn't require you to get to a phone to get into the car, nor do you need your account number or OnStar ID.

Why do I want to pay $16.95 each month just in case I lock my keys in the car or have a crash with air bag deployment? For chrissake, if I'm in a crash with airbag deployment, what about the other vehicle(s) in the crash and any witnesses thereto? Anybody got a cell phone? If I'm unconscious, I am certainly not going to talk to the OnStar Advisor (granted they will at least know where I am at, though dead.)

One last thing about that crash stuff...
Hope that the battery isn't busted in the crash - for obvious reasons - though there is a tiny bit of reserve.
Also, hope that you are not on the side or top with fuel running out of the tank into the vehicle. Cause just when you DON'T want any electrical activity - the OnStar cellular system will ring you and begin running diagnostics on all operational systems so it can send a report back to command center. Just pray for no sparks.

For every gain, there is found some pain.
I prefer not to engage in these electronic leashes that technology is creating in the name of "good ideas". Scientists that developed nuclear technology did so with the best intentions of power generation and persuit of the origins of our universe, but some perverts were able to use the same technology for nuclear warheads and control too. Examples of good ideas turned corrupt abound in our world, and I see this as another one with potential for corruption.
Next, someone will convince us all to line-up and have chips inserted into our bodies... ummm... so we don't have to carry our debit cards with us to the movies... yeah, that's it! That's why!
You get "chipped" for convenience, I'll stick with cash, thanks just the same.

 

ha ha they already want to implant chips in kids to track them..its been talked about,
and im sure there is going to be a bypass thing out there that will mask the codes of the onstar sytem so you can cheat the computer kinda like a radar detector...looks like a backpack but corupts the signal sent to Onstar...and since its not hardwired into the car and looks like a backpack or part of your luggage your ok.. hmmm...goes and gets a pen and paper..lol ....j/k..I dont have any clue how onstar works for the most part..satalitte and receivers thats it...

 

Onstar has one too. Check out the Chevy trucks that look like they have two XM antennas.

Onstar will be good for 99% of car buyers. Just think if you had a 16yr. kid taking your family car, or you buy them a new Cobalt or Aveo for College, you would feel better with Onstar in there car. If they are in a 1 car chrash and knocked unconsious Onstar and GPS will get help to them.

The Big Brother threat won't be a problem until every thing is drive-by-wire or there is the automotive equivalant to the Janet Jackson thing.

 

Why would OnStar, or anyone else want to randomly track you, listen in on you, collect your data, etc? Makes no sense. They'd have ot have a staff of tens of thousands of peopple to do this.... and for what gain? Nothing.


I can't see this happeneing. C'mon... we're REALLY getting into some deep dark conspiracy theories here. Plus, imagine the lawsuit they'd have on their hands if something happened to the baby or your wife beause of this... it's not worth it to them. Plus I'm sure it's totally illegal.

For this reason, I think it might have been better for GM to OFFER OnStar on every vehicle, but only make STabiliTrak standard on every vehicle.

LOL. Ditto!

What if you don't have any pockets, or you are jogging and don't want to carry a SECOND set of keys, or a million other things. What's the big deal? It's a convience service that you get with OnStar. It's nice to know if I DO lock myself out, I don;t have to have some unknown guy come to my car with a slim jim and rip up the door and weatherstripping trying ot get into the car.... As for the touch pad. They are hidous looking. Big, clunky, and nasty. The idea is good, but they look terrible... Plus, it's not that difficult for someone to watch you type your code in, then use it later.

You get more than that for $16.95. You also get potential stolen vehciel recovery, onboard realtime diagnostics, and a host of other things. The airbag deployment notice is reason enough. They call 911 for you IMMEDIATELY wether they get in touch with you or not (unconscious)... if you get run off the road, and the other party takles off, and you are on a country road somewhere... you are probably DEAD in that situation. OnStar just saved your life.... for $17.


Every system has it's limitations.... but it's a worthy system. How many cars have exploded because of OnStar? Again, I'm gonna guess zero.


Dude, you've been watching too much TV! Not everyone is out to get you....

 

Blame the Patiot Act, not Onstar for that. Patriot act makes it so the man doesn't need warrants to listen in or track you.

 

Mark,
I am not rushing to the aid of redzed - because I don't exaclty agree with his approach or reasoning in most cases, this one included. However, I have to say that he is (pretty much) correct in this case. I can't speak for "mis-use" of OnStar for investigation and/or bugging purposes. but it certainly facilitates the command center to the OBD and event recorders, which have both been used against drivers unbeknownst to them - especially the event recorder. And there is no warrant required to access the data (except in Cali)...

Link 1 - Forbes Magazine
" General Motors let the investigators know that the car had stored its speed at the time of crash. The estimate was off by more than a factor of two. The car was doing 50mph."
In this case, GM INFORMED the authorities of the data, they certainly didn't have to get a warrant.

Link 2 - San Francisco Chronicle
" The legislation, the first of its kind in the nation, prevents the recorded data from being obtained by police or others without the vehicle owner's consent or a court order -- except in cases of safety research in which the owner's identity is protected."
The liberal nation of California has taken the first step (pioneers aren't they ) in making access to data colletion from YOUR CAR illegal without your consent - it went into law last year. They are the first and only so far that I am aware of though - everywhere else, it's still free for the taking.

There's tons of this out there.
As for using the OnStar as a bugging device - I haven't searched for it yet, but maybe I will later. We all certainly have to agree that at least it is possible.

I am all for nailing a drunk guy that smashes into a car of innocent teenage girls that was doing nothing wrong. But do it legally and ethically, ya know? I'd hate to see a guy skate on a technicality, but our system also needs to defend the public's privacy and rights to search and seizure - ya know, the 4th amendment?

 

I am a conspiracy theorist... disguised as a common man with some common sense!
I don't think everyone is out to get me... but I'm also not going to give everyone the chance to "have me" at will either.
I am conservative ( not A conservative as in politics mind you). I err on the safe side, and don't typically risk things - especially my sovereignty. For example...
I have yet to buy ANYTHING off Ebay.
I have yet to give out my credit card number on line for anything.
I have yet to sign up for on-line bill paying.
And so on and so forth...
I also have not had any credit card theft, identity theft, or other problems that my "in-crowd" friends are experiencing. Sure the convenience would be nice, "just click and buy"... but how convenient is it to be audited or have to re-establish your identity to the bank and verify what you bought/didn't buy for the last month? I'll shop on line, then call and speak to a person, get a name, and often call them back a second time if I place a large order to be sure they are legit.

So I don't think I'm so much a conspiracy theorist as I am a conservative person. I don't like the thought of giving someone else (a big company or government, and monopolies are just as bad) power to control me or my life. Government should be BY THE PEOPLE, FOR THE PEOPLE, not to CONTROL THE PEOPLE.
Example of giving up rights innocently? Hitler convinced all of Germany to register their weapons to show how mighty the German public was... only for them to find out that he now had an arms list to send out the troops and verify all guns were collected as he disarmed the citizens. Had the general public been armed in Germany in the early-mid 30's, there would have been no 3rd Reich, or WWII because the overwhelming majority of Germans did not like or approve of Hitler - they welcomed our troops into their country and considered our occupation as liberation for them. I know, I have interviewed vets and authored papers on this matter.

Yes, some of the other stuff was fiction and speculation - I even said so in the post. I just want to get you to think about it a little, and don't let some Gigantic-Company, Inc sell you one side of the story and convince you to give them power to control you while charging you a tidy sum to do it. And yes, GM and the government are in pretty tight too.

But now Darth Xed, really... I have to rebuttle one of your "fictitious scenarios" just for fun (like you did mine )
Jogging, and left the keys in the car? Didn't want to carry a spare set of keys?
Then how you gonna call OnStar? If you don't want to carry a SPARE KEY (one for the door only), you sure won't carry a cell phone with your Ipod and Jam gear too. So are you going to go to a pay phone? With what money? No wallet if you won't carry a spare key, or do you jog with a pocket full of coins? I digress - this situation is as silly and fictitious as mine was.
There are three solutions to being locked-out in MY world...
Carry a spare - I do.
Hide a spare on the vehicle - I do on some.
Keyless entry/touchpad - I have on 3 of mine.
None of these cost me $17/mo, they require no phones to use, are always present at the vehicle when I am, and they always work - PERIOD.

At least we agree on the mandatory StabiliTrac, and OPTIONAL OnStar.
Since these are our opinions, what say we just agree to disagree early on this one? I'm more old-fashioned and conservative about my rights - I'd rather risk dying while living totally free and unrestricted, whereas you seem to prefer risking your sovereignty and rights to privacy for perceived safety features - and that's cool. Neither of us is "wrong" as I see it, we just have different values placed on outside invasion into our personal lives.

I appreciate the conversation!

 

You are correct.
The Patriot Act allows investigators to act without requiring a pre-approved warrant. All that is required for investigation, interrogation, or even an incarceration, is a suspicion that you are a terrorist of any kind involved in any kind of terrorist activity. They can act first and ask questions later, as long as it was under suspicion of terrorist activity.

OK...
'Nuf of this political junk and Bill of Rights crap...
Back to the thread and the great news about GM putting bugging/tracking devices in all of their models and charging you monthly to maintain it...

:bows out quietly and slips through the rear door as sneaky unlawabiding, conspiracy-theorizing citizens always do:

 

But, by simply having and using a credit card, you are already playing the game. If you want to buy into all the tracking things, you can be tracked by your credit card, whether it is used online or over the phone, or in person.

Do you have a telephone? If so, it can be tapped just as easily as OnStar can listen in.

Where does it end?


Good point on the cell phone, but I can counter a few of your points...

1) I can borrow any other persons cell phone who may be around to call OnStar and get into my car... that person isn't going to have a set of my keys.

2) If there is a pay phone around, I CAN use it, becaus OnStar is a toll free call.



As always, an interesting conversation

However, I do not feel I am "risking my sovereignty or privacy" by choosing a car with OnStar... at least no more than you do by simply have a credit card or telephone.

 

If the new Z06 has OnStar (and it is not a delete option or readily defeatable), I'll build a frame-conversion midyear with LS1/2/6 and modern conveniences.

If every GM car has OnStar (and it is not a delete option or readily defeatable) GM has lost every sale they could have made to me in the future.

Not a conspiracy theorist--just a realist. If the technology is there, it will be used. And we don't know who will be using it.

 

Darth,

I think you misunderstood my earlier comments. It is not what On Star does NOW, but what it COULD DO. I'm not for it, at all. And as to my comment regarding warranty work, let me ask you something. If On Star monitors I drive at 75 MPH, am I wrecking anything that would be a warranty item? No. But if I am exceeding the speed limit, then that could be seen as "abuse" and just cause to void a warranty. THAT is my point...

It may not happen yet, but it could and probably will. Speeding while harming no one nor your car is different than the Event Data Recorder saying I slammed into a parked car at 80...a big difference. If you don't think GM can't find a way to penalize drivers who speed by voiding warranties, you just watch...

 

How would driving 75mph be considered abuse in any circumstance?

OnStar just isn't there to watch over everyone's sholder... even if they wanted to, it's not cost effective.

I'm not trying to change anyone's mind, but this is just the next thing that people will complain about, then comply with.

If everyone were so diehard about it, they wouldn't be driving cars with black boxes...... or using credit cards... or using telephones, etc etc etc.

Again, where does it end?

 

First mod to do on the new Camaro:

!Onstar (i.e. snip-snip, tug, and in the trash it goes).

The black box, is one thing and it's presence is arguably (though contentiously) an asset (it could prove your innocence in the event of a crash), but I don't need to give the Govt. the ability to track my location in realtime as well. That's my business and mine alone. **** "Help me - I've locked myself in my car!" Onstar.

 

Onstar is definitely stirring up a lot of commotion here . Maybe it is one of those features that GM should offer as a "No charge" option. That way, the people that want it can get it for free or basically standard and those that don't won't have to deal with it. Or offer Onstar as standard, and "Onstar delete" at no charge.

 

Exactly. ProudPony, do you have a Cell Phone? You can easily be tracked while using it....if we stretched this out, none of us would even be using the internet, this site would certainly not exist and you wouldn't be here because "they" can track your IP address and find out many interesting things about you.