For those of you arguing that the Camaro is a pure performance car, it isn't. It's not like the vette, it's a compromise plain and simple. It's got Hi-Po models to build image and get publicity and the base models to pay the bills and appease the bean counters. The vette is basically all about the image it gives GM, not really there for profits. I don't really think Z/28 is ever going to make it to the top again in the public eye, it's a different world than 1969, I think it's time we realized that. Pentatonic's idea of creating a new moniker may sound crazy and I don't know that I agree with him but when we discuss retro everyone seems to get up in arms about how retro sucks. If it sucks so bad than it should be clear, we don't lose our history simply by embracing new things. You can have a new Camaro that looks new and is called something else, that's how legends like the Z/28 and SS started. GM obviously is not worried about the details of which model was actually the real performance variant in 1969. It's clear they are going to stick with the Z/28 and SS as competetors with the GT and Cobra, maybe they'll bring out specialty models like a COPO or Yenko to compete with the likes of the Bullitt and MACH1, but dont start in on me about why using those names would be heresy, I've had enough of this dusty aging men's club for one night. We all want a new camaro but it seems like we are sitting in our trailers drooling over the 'good ole' days' and we just really want GM to re-release the first gens. Do you want something new or don't you? Kids today and those in a few years don't really know or care about what origionally Z/28 or SS meant. And that's what GM sees, but we all know how true GM is to their history right I mean there aren't even really races that someone can watch where F-bodies compete, like the trans-am series. They're not going to have drag racing variants, and road racing variants, we'll be lucky if they aren't hybrids by the time GM gets around to building them. I just want to end all this SS Z/28 nonsense. Its nice to learn the history but some of us sound like the Star Trek geeks of unimportant car history, get out, enjoy your car, it's got a SS on the side or a Z/28 who gives a monkey ****. not me, all camaros get a thumbs up when I'm cruising.

 

Some people care and some people don't, but model designations are more important than you think. Its best to do what makes sense and whats true to the car.

 

SDS....that sounds like the name of one of the diseases you could get from sleeping with the dirty girl at school

 

Gotta disagree with pretty much everything you said here, and here's why.

First, though I partially agree with what I think you intended to get across (that Camaro isn't a pure SPORTS car, vice performance car), it's reputation is in fact a sporty performance car. Mustang's image is fun to drive, Camaro's is performance. It's just that simple, and GM & Ford media have the survey info to back that up.

You are correct in your view that the performance editions of a individual car line are the "Halo" cars of that line, but each line of cars are different. When you talk about cars like the Mustang & Camaro, you MUST have performance editions, and those performance editions will make up a far greater portion of sales than say a performance edition of a big coupe or sedan. Example: Mustang GTs and Camaro Z28s over most years made up about 1/3 of the total sales of their respective carline. Yet, the Thunderbird SC over it's life barely broke 4-5%. I can look up the figures later, but I'm guessing Monte Carlo SSs make up about 15% of it's sales.

As for the beancounters are only interested in making the most money from the least spent. It's the performance models that tend to make the MOST money of a carline on a per vehicle basis, NOT the base or cheaper models. Chevy lost money on every base, low/no option Camaro made, yet made money on every Z28, and made even more money on the SS! Over the entire line, Camaro was still (average per car) making GM a profit. It was the performance models that made it profitable. I also recall reading it in a interview in Doug's magazine a few years ago.

Camaro is one of the top 3 recognizable car names in the US. Poll after poll has shown that. I even read it in a USA Today article when they had a story on Camaro's end. Z28 is synomonous with Camaro. I really don't see how you can remark that it's not 1969 anymore regarding the Z28 name. There were 20,000 Z28s sold in 1969. Last year was a BAD year for the Z28, and it still sold 24,000 models! Don't even get me started on yearly production figures from 1978-1993 & the mid 90's!

Mustang and Corvette have a history that is longer than Camaro or Z28. Say those names to people and they are more likely to think of the 1960s and it's past then the current cars. And I will gaurantee you, every one of them will look at the current cars as a link to the past. That's why both cars sell extremely well today, it's history to true enthusiasts. Your view that the name Z28 is long dead & from a bygone era just doesn't hold water, and doesn't show an appriciation of a car's history & it's influence on the marketplace.

Trivia question for you: How old are the Mustang GT and the Cobra names, cars that are very popular, and well known today? Are they older than Z28?

As for the COPO & Yenko models, I am sure someone here will correct me if I'm wrong, but the COPO models were special order and EXTREMELY EXPENSIVE vehicles. The ZL1 Corvette cost more than twice the price of the standard Vette, and had the same price effect with Camaro. I can't think of anyone here that would pay nearly $60,000 just to compete with a Cobra. Yenko was a dealer effort, that got national recognition. Both are unacceptible today, and simply won't be done. As you say, it isn't the 60's anymore. Dealers don't have that leeway, and the public won't pay.

Kids buy what they can afford. Kids buy used cars, kids buy economy cars. They always have, they always will. Todays economy cars are FWD Hondas, Mitsus, and even the Focus. The aftermarket supports these cars as they once supported Novas & Chevelles. Now, as the get older, and want something quick, they go to Mustang. The sporty car market is all about the latest & "hip" or "cool" design. Mustang has kept up regular changes, and Ford markets the Mustang well. But, Chevrolet has kept Camaro the same for almost 10 years, and in the last 5 invested ZERO in marketing.

Many people have dropped by blaming everything but the kitchen sink on Camaro's demise, and how Camaro would be better & more successful if only it would drop this, or change that, or "with the times".

Z28 has a long history. It has always had the same formula in performance trim, a V8 a step away from what the Corvette has, head turning style (at least the style's 1st few years), and the letters Z28 on the sides. It was never about kids, it was about those who can appriciate a car like this, normally after they go through their "I turned my cheap economy car a super quick rocket" phase . There are alot of Celicas & Hondas piling up in car lots just for that crowd.

As long as Mustang & Corvette is proving the market for historic car names, and performance cars are selling (and in case you haven't noticed, are alot FASTER than historic muscle cars of the 60s), Camaro simply needs a new style, new marketing, and a new committment from GM, and it will be fine.

 

I care. I care alot. These are both names that should mean something to enthusiasts...and by trickle down effect to the lay consumer. They are not interchangeable....Chevy should have more respect for them.

I can tell you the top warp speed of the USS Enterprise too.

 

I don't care what they call it. I just want a V8 RWD manually shifted Camaro with top of the line performance, and superior handling.

Call it the Camaro Ham & Swiss for all I care. I basically want top-dog "SS" performance with the sleeper looks of the 2002 Z/28 available straight from the factory.

...and as long as there's a chance Red Planet will read this....

I WANT OPTIONAL BIG BLOCK POWER!!!

 

You mean the Camaro H/S.

 

Wow! Won't that make it a bit nose heavy?

 

Not if they make an all-aluminum version of the 8.1 exclusively for the Camaro "SDS"

(Heck they're making an all-aluminum 5.4 for the SSR.)

 

OK guys how about this? (Keep in mind that I am using current engines. I have no idea what may be available in 4 years)


Base Camaro - 3.8 V6 210 hp, any comfort/conveniance options you want including T tops (targa? )

Base Camaro sport package - give it the RS suspension and give it the SC 250 hp 3.8


RS Camaro - 5.3 270 hp V8 with any comfort/conveniance options


Camaro Z28 - 6.0 high output 420+ hp.
Leather, power equipment, Onstar, T tops, etc, WILL NOT BE AVAILABLE ON THIS MODEL. Maybe have an upgraded stereo as an option.
Give it a host of performance only options like a noisy high flow exhaust, race ready suspension, brakes, and tires. Give it various fluid coolers and a better optional rear gear selection. Hell maybe throw in optional factory SFCs and an AC delete option.

Dstinguish it from other Camaros with the twin hood, roof and deck stripes, cold air induction hood and model specific wheels.


SS Camaro - 6.0 lower compression for 350 hp
Make all comfort/conveniance options standard. Make leather and T tops the only option.
The only performance option should be a low boost factory supercharger good for 400 hp. This would work well with the lower compression.

Distinguish it from other Camaros by giving it the "black out" treatment on the rear valance, roof and grill. Give it model specific wheels. Maybe even model specific front fascia.


The SS and Z28 should sticker fairly close to each other. All models
would also come with standard IRS. A solid rear axle would be optional at an extra cost. That's right more money for less tech. Not all of us are hard core drag racers but its there if you want it.

I believe these engine and appearance options would satisfy most people with their performance and model exclusivity. (Keeps the SS and Z28 people from chewing each others ears off) It might also bring these models closer to their roots.

The supercharger is in line with GM's new power adder/SS philosophy. It might be easy to make more hp than the Z with a pulley change but the SS will always be substantially heavier mitigating the advantage.

I realize this makes for a confusing option process, but just look at all the special edition Mustangs! Also think of all the parts interchangeability!

What do you think?

 

Yeah but the current LS1 is all aluminum too. So even if an 8.1L is all aluminum, its still going to be heavier and weigh down the nose. But the 8.1L only exists for the Silverado 2500-3500's for the point of having an engien with mroe torque for heavy hauling! For automotive purposes, the big block is dead. People that feel there should be a big block in a 5th gen need to get over it. Hell, if you want displacement, you can take the Gen III to 7.0L if 5.7 isn't enough for you. The small block is the pinnacle of GM engine development. It creates the power needed in a smog legal format, in a small package. This is needed for high powered but excellent handling cars such as the Corvette. The future Gen IV small blocks will create GOBS AND GOBS of power in the same small format.
I know some of us would want to have a 502 crate motor in our cars, but if you want such an engine in a car, buy a classic muscle car. In today's sporty cars, there is no need for a big block. Besides, anyone consider how much a big block would outpower a Corvette? True there have been other cars that have outpowered Corvettes, but only by a small margin. You simply cannot have a drag warrior big block 5th gen outpower a Corvette by that wide of a margin.
Also the development costs for a single form of big block for a single car (5th gen) would be too much to justify it.


Sometimes I think we all desire way too much of the 1st gen in a 5th gen around here...

 

lol True I guess. I'm actually in the process of planning a 502 powered 1st gen project.

I just love big engines! If they can work the Gen III small block out to 7.0 liters, then by all means they should. No replacement for displacement.

 

IMO, the Z/28 has always been a Camaro model while the SS once was, but now is, a package.

And the SS (package) has been around long before the Camaro. Chevy stole SS from the Impala SS (which had been around since the early 60s).

If the SS has not become a package, why does/did GM plunk the name down on so many different vehicles?

Some other SSs over the years:

Impala SS
Nova SS
Chevelle SS
Monte Carlo SS
Silverado SS
El Camino SS
Monza SS
Cavalier SS

SS(R)?

I'm sure I'm missing a few.

You have to give the SS credit though. GM knew that when people heard the term SS (does SS still stand for SuperSport?) they were gonna think, in most cases (actual or perceived), performance.

BTW, I love the SS. Whatever it is. But Camaro and Z/28 have become synonymous and iconish.

 

What do I think!?

You know what I think.