No more Trans Am....
Registered User
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 808
From: manassas, VA
It also took the 04 GTOs more than a model year to finallly clear out. It certainlly wasn't uncommon to see an 04 sitting on the lot months after the other 04MY cars were gone. The 04s sales numbers kind of win simply by default.
Do those sales numbers include Formies as well?
Do those sales numbers include Formies as well?
No i didn't include formulas, but they never broke 2k in any year of the LS1 run, IOW, barely offset what happens if you subtract convertibles. I also don't think including the cheapest, lowest option cars makes for an entirely fair comparison, especially when the poster i am refering to has such a specific hard on for the TA.
I said at the beginning of this that this would go nowhere fast. I'm at least nice enough to doa google search for a couple numbers to support my opinions. IMO, that beats, "no way, the ls1 firebird probably just scared you" lame *** bs anyday
Registered User
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 3,011
From: Exton, Pennsylvania
I made my point. The first year GTOs didn't fly off the lots. First year Firebirds did not have that
I still would have included them myself. There total sales of the vehicle as a whole identify it's credibility to GM's bottom line.
I don't know if this is still only a direct reference to TA76, or if I am someone implicated by this statement. It is hard to pick up subtlities like that on the internet. However, I do believe the Firebird was polarizing in a different way.
No i didn't include formulas, but they never broke 2k in any year of the LS1 run, IOW, barely offset what happens if you subtract convertibles. I also don't think including the cheapest, lowest option cars makes for an entirely fair comparison, especially when the poster i am refering to has such a specific hard on for the TA.
I said at the beginning of this that this would go nowhere fast. I'm at least nice enough to doa google search for a couple numbers to support my opinions. IMO, that beats, "no way, the ls1 firebird probably just scared you" lame *** bs anyday
Registered User
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 808
From: manassas, VA
Another way of looking at it too, how much money did GM spend on the various body differences to support the formula, and convertibles. Same for the money that was spent on the different wheel packages, interior trim /colors / etc. That's a lot of money on development and testing for a modest fractional gain in sales, thus a hurt to the bottom line.
In the end, all i'm really trying to say is, the LS1 firebird, barely outsold the GTO. If it was the work of art some claim it to be, why did it sell basically as poorly as the GTO, which at least had built in obstacles to it's selling in higher numbers.
Maybe what this all means is, those that make the point that pontiac as a performance brand is a failure because they haven't been able to generate enough excitement about any of their performance cars in the past decade.
Last edited by notgetleft; Feb 16, 2008 at 11:13 AM.
Registered User
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,502
Gotta choose my words carefully around here, but the perception exists that the Trans Am was that car that peaked in 1979 along with gold chains and disco. GM stayed true to the 'formula', but realistically they were never going to get a large number of 21st century $30K car buyers into a T/A.
The GTO was more along the lines of a what you'd expect from a modern BMW/Euro killer, but dated styling, poor marketing, lack of options, etc limited its market.
In the end its six of one, half-dozen of the other. Both cars were great at what they were trying to do, but GM couldn't figure out how to sell either of them correctly. Blame Pontiac is kinda the easy way out -- Pontiac has no clear identity or consistant products. You throw a Trans Am or GTO out on the floor with a bunch of Grand Ams and G6s and no wonder nobody can find them.
The GTO was more along the lines of a what you'd expect from a modern BMW/Euro killer, but dated styling, poor marketing, lack of options, etc limited its market.
In the end its six of one, half-dozen of the other. Both cars were great at what they were trying to do, but GM couldn't figure out how to sell either of them correctly. Blame Pontiac is kinda the easy way out -- Pontiac has no clear identity or consistant products. You throw a Trans Am or GTO out on the floor with a bunch of Grand Ams and G6s and no wonder nobody can find them.
Registered User
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 417
From: Malden, Ma
I think if GM can focus and give the attention to Pontiac that Saturn has, I believe Pontiac can make a turn around. Focus more on lighter weight chassis, interior quality, and 4-cyl and 6 cyl engines with FI or DI could do the trick. And keep one V8 coupe/sedan as a Halo brand. Hopefully with Alpha coming out, Pontiac can get that chassis.
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,376
From: Sarasota FL
Another "Pontiac is dead or dying" thread? And I didn't even have to start it this time?? 
Anyway, with all due respect to Charlie, I completely disagree with the assessment that Pontiac gave the consumer what they wanted, and it got ignored by the Pontiac enthusiast body. When I sold GTOs, the most common term used to describe the style was "bloated Cavalier" or "late '90s Grand Prix 2 door." The GXP GP was saddled with a crappy interior...period. The whole '04 GP re-design was sad...lets be honest. I own one, and I love it, but if I didn't have any Pontiac history aiding me to buy it, I never would have given it a second look.
Meanwhile, the Solstice is a niche offering at best, and while its a great car, its getting partially overshadowed by a Saturn. The Aura and the Malibu are far superior to the G6, which needed a nicer interior when it debuted THREE YEARS AGO! It hasn't even gotten an MCE, either.
So, other than the G8, what has Pontiac actually DONE besides make a cool little sports car and import a blandish-looking Australian coupe that debuted there in '97? NOTHING! And that is the entire point of many of us who continue to whine! I would have signed on the dotted line for a new GXP GP if the interior was worthy of the rest of the car. Instead, I paid half that and bought a 3 year old Comp G that gives me 85% of the performance for 1/2 the purchase price. How could I be blamed?
guion, we aren't all necessarily looking for those "10% performance oriented" trim levels. Why is it Mazda and Nissan can sell mainstream, sporty offerings, but GM can't?
Isn't it more like "won't"????
Anyway, with all due respect to Charlie, I completely disagree with the assessment that Pontiac gave the consumer what they wanted, and it got ignored by the Pontiac enthusiast body. When I sold GTOs, the most common term used to describe the style was "bloated Cavalier" or "late '90s Grand Prix 2 door." The GXP GP was saddled with a crappy interior...period. The whole '04 GP re-design was sad...lets be honest. I own one, and I love it, but if I didn't have any Pontiac history aiding me to buy it, I never would have given it a second look.
Meanwhile, the Solstice is a niche offering at best, and while its a great car, its getting partially overshadowed by a Saturn. The Aura and the Malibu are far superior to the G6, which needed a nicer interior when it debuted THREE YEARS AGO! It hasn't even gotten an MCE, either.
So, other than the G8, what has Pontiac actually DONE besides make a cool little sports car and import a blandish-looking Australian coupe that debuted there in '97? NOTHING! And that is the entire point of many of us who continue to whine! I would have signed on the dotted line for a new GXP GP if the interior was worthy of the rest of the car. Instead, I paid half that and bought a 3 year old Comp G that gives me 85% of the performance for 1/2 the purchase price. How could I be blamed?
guion, we aren't all necessarily looking for those "10% performance oriented" trim levels. Why is it Mazda and Nissan can sell mainstream, sporty offerings, but GM can't?
Isn't it more like "won't"????
Registered User
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 417
From: Malden, Ma
Another "Pontiac is dead or dying" thread? And I didn't even have to start it this time??
Anyway, with all due respect to Charlie, I completely disagree with the assessment that Pontiac gave the consumer what they wanted, and it got ignored by the Pontiac enthusiast body. When I sold GTOs, the most common term used to describe the style was "bloated Cavalier" or "late '90s Grand Prix 2 door." The GXP GP was saddled with a crappy interior...period. The whole '04 GP re-design was sad...lets be honest. I own one, and I love it, but if I didn't have any Pontiac history aiding me to buy it, I never would have given it a second look.
Meanwhile, the Solstice is a niche offering at best, and while its a great car, its getting partially overshadowed by a Saturn. The Aura and the Malibu are far superior to the G6, which needed a nicer interior when it debuted THREE YEARS AGO! It hasn't even gotten an MCE, either.
So, other than the G8, what has Pontiac actually DONE besides make a cool little sports car and import a blandish-looking Australian coupe that debuted there in '97? NOTHING! And that is the entire point of many of us who continue to whine! I would have signed on the dotted line for a new GXP GP if the interior was worthy of the rest of the car. Instead, I paid half that and bought a 3 year old Comp G that gives me 85% of the performance for 1/2 the purchase price. How could I be blamed?
guion, we aren't all necessarily looking for those "10% performance oriented" trim levels. Why is it Mazda and Nissan can sell mainstream, sporty offerings, but GM can't?
Isn't it more like "won't"????
Anyway, with all due respect to Charlie, I completely disagree with the assessment that Pontiac gave the consumer what they wanted, and it got ignored by the Pontiac enthusiast body. When I sold GTOs, the most common term used to describe the style was "bloated Cavalier" or "late '90s Grand Prix 2 door." The GXP GP was saddled with a crappy interior...period. The whole '04 GP re-design was sad...lets be honest. I own one, and I love it, but if I didn't have any Pontiac history aiding me to buy it, I never would have given it a second look.
Meanwhile, the Solstice is a niche offering at best, and while its a great car, its getting partially overshadowed by a Saturn. The Aura and the Malibu are far superior to the G6, which needed a nicer interior when it debuted THREE YEARS AGO! It hasn't even gotten an MCE, either.
So, other than the G8, what has Pontiac actually DONE besides make a cool little sports car and import a blandish-looking Australian coupe that debuted there in '97? NOTHING! And that is the entire point of many of us who continue to whine! I would have signed on the dotted line for a new GXP GP if the interior was worthy of the rest of the car. Instead, I paid half that and bought a 3 year old Comp G that gives me 85% of the performance for 1/2 the purchase price. How could I be blamed?
guion, we aren't all necessarily looking for those "10% performance oriented" trim levels. Why is it Mazda and Nissan can sell mainstream, sporty offerings, but GM can't?
Isn't it more like "won't"????
Thank you. It just seems that GM can produce performance oriented cars for Pontiac, but doesn't. Like you mentioned about the Sky overshadowing the Solstice ( which I thought was supposed to be only for Pontiac 
) it seems other GM divisions have rebadged cars that outperform its Pontiac sibling. Why is that?I concur that if Mazda and Nissan can offer performance oriented cars, Pontiac should be able to as well.
Registered User
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 3,011
From: Exton, Pennsylvania
Another "Pontiac is dead or dying" thread? And I didn't even have to start it this time??
Anyway, with all due respect to Charlie, I completely disagree with the assessment that Pontiac gave the consumer what they wanted, and it got ignored by the Pontiac enthusiast body. When I sold GTOs, the most common term used to describe the style was "bloated Cavalier" or "late '90s Grand Prix 2 door." The GXP GP was saddled with a crappy interior...period. The whole '04 GP re-design was sad...lets be honest. I own one, and I love it, but if I didn't have any Pontiac history aiding me to buy it, I never would have given it a second look.
Meanwhile, the Solstice is a niche offering at best, and while its a great car, its getting partially overshadowed by a Saturn. The Aura and the Malibu are far superior to the G6, which needed a nicer interior when it debuted THREE YEARS AGO! It hasn't even gotten an MCE, either.
So, other than the G8, what has Pontiac actually DONE besides make a cool little sports car and import a blandish-looking Australian coupe that debuted there in '97? NOTHING! And that is the entire point of many of us who continue to whine! I would have signed on the dotted line for a new GXP GP if the interior was worthy of the rest of the car. Instead, I paid half that and bought a 3 year old Comp G that gives me 85% of the performance for 1/2 the purchase price. How could I be blamed?
guion, we aren't all necessarily looking for those "10% performance oriented" trim levels. Why is it Mazda and Nissan can sell mainstream, sporty offerings, but GM can't?
Isn't it more like "won't"????
Anyway, with all due respect to Charlie, I completely disagree with the assessment that Pontiac gave the consumer what they wanted, and it got ignored by the Pontiac enthusiast body. When I sold GTOs, the most common term used to describe the style was "bloated Cavalier" or "late '90s Grand Prix 2 door." The GXP GP was saddled with a crappy interior...period. The whole '04 GP re-design was sad...lets be honest. I own one, and I love it, but if I didn't have any Pontiac history aiding me to buy it, I never would have given it a second look.
Meanwhile, the Solstice is a niche offering at best, and while its a great car, its getting partially overshadowed by a Saturn. The Aura and the Malibu are far superior to the G6, which needed a nicer interior when it debuted THREE YEARS AGO! It hasn't even gotten an MCE, either.
So, other than the G8, what has Pontiac actually DONE besides make a cool little sports car and import a blandish-looking Australian coupe that debuted there in '97? NOTHING! And that is the entire point of many of us who continue to whine! I would have signed on the dotted line for a new GXP GP if the interior was worthy of the rest of the car. Instead, I paid half that and bought a 3 year old Comp G that gives me 85% of the performance for 1/2 the purchase price. How could I be blamed?
guion, we aren't all necessarily looking for those "10% performance oriented" trim levels. Why is it Mazda and Nissan can sell mainstream, sporty offerings, but GM can't?
Isn't it more like "won't"????
Very good post.
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 16,176
From: Chicagoland IL
Anyway, with all due respect to Charlie, I completely disagree with the assessment that Pontiac gave the consumer what they wanted, and it got ignored by the Pontiac enthusiast body. When I sold GTOs, the most common term used to describe the style was "bloated Cavalier" or "late '90s Grand Prix 2 door." The GXP GP was saddled with a crappy interior...period. The whole '04 GP re-design was sad...lets be honest. I own one, and I love it, but if I didn't have any Pontiac history aiding me to buy it, I never would have given it a second look.
Imagine for a moment if the Monte Carlo SS came in as focused of a flavor as the GP GXP. Or what if the Malibu came in a sporty coupe - with an available stick. Or Chevy was getting a 6.0L Impala SS.
What Pontiac got was maybe far from perfect, and no doubt, Pontiac management could have played a smarter game with what they got. But you can't deny that Pontiac got some pretty enthusiast oriented proct over the past few years..
Registered User
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 9,705
From: Oakland, California
I know the Judge came out in 1969. I knew it when I posted. I just wanted to see if you'd catch it. 
Registered User
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 3,011
From: Exton, Pennsylvania
Let me rephrase that Jason. Pontiac's offerings were not perfect. In fact, from from it. But I think that's more of an indictment of GM's products of the period, rather than lack of product directed at the enthusiast.
Imagine for a moment if the Monte Carlo SS came in as focused of a flavor as the GP GXP. Or what if the Malibu came in a sporty coupe - with an available stick. Or Chevy was getting a 6.0L Impala SS.
What Pontiac got was maybe far from perfect, and no doubt, Pontiac management could have played a smarter game with what they got. But you can't deny that Pontiac got some pretty enthusiast oriented proct over the past few years..
Imagine for a moment if the Monte Carlo SS came in as focused of a flavor as the GP GXP. Or what if the Malibu came in a sporty coupe - with an available stick. Or Chevy was getting a 6.0L Impala SS.
What Pontiac got was maybe far from perfect, and no doubt, Pontiac management could have played a smarter game with what they got. But you can't deny that Pontiac got some pretty enthusiast oriented proct over the past few years..
A performance brand shouldn't be getting slightly better versions of the same crap that is found in the Chevy showroom. Half assed efforts give half assed results.
Oh, ok.
Last edited by RussStang; Feb 17, 2008 at 09:06 AM.
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 13,713
From: The Golden State
I've been reading your posts long enough to guess this is at least partly tongue in cheek and meant to draw out Poncho people. Okay, I'll bite.
Let me get this straight: Pontiac is building great vehicles and the only problem is that customers are too lazy to buy them? Riiigghht.
We've heard this argument before from GM's folks. When they canceled the Camaro, they said there was no coupe market, despite that other coupe that does quite well. When they dropped Bonneville, it was because no one wanted large sedans anymore, never mind the people buying 300's, Avalons and Maxima's.
In fact, Pontiac's products don't exist in a vacuum. Yes, Pontiac had a V6 coupe with a manual transmission. The only problem is other brands (Honda) sold a much better manual V6 coupe. Also, V6 coupes with manual transmissions are supposed to be fun to drive, and the G6 with the 3.9L was not.
Same goes for the Grand Prix GXP. Now, I have a soft spot for this car, but it was a very compromised package in terms of looks and its interior. It also, like the Bonneville GXP, came too late to help its dying model.
Solstice and Torrent GXP are nice, and I believe they both sell quite well. Both would sell better had GM not decided to give other brands (Saturn, Chevy) duplicates. I also love the G8, and am hoping it gets to dealers soon and does well. It doesn't make me all that optimistic though, to read that GM has already canceled the car's replacement.
Pontiac has had many models over the past few years that could have been absolute hits for little to no investment. But GM seems unwilling to take this last step for the brand, and seems to have no clear vision for it. I think that's a shame because Pontiac could still play a very vital role in the new GM.
P.S. I drive a Grand Prix GTP, and my father until recently drove an '04 GTO. Many of the Pontiac people on this board, most notably Brandon and JasonE, have also owned several recent Pontiacs.
Let me get this straight: Pontiac is building great vehicles and the only problem is that customers are too lazy to buy them? Riiigghht.
We've heard this argument before from GM's folks. When they canceled the Camaro, they said there was no coupe market, despite that other coupe that does quite well. When they dropped Bonneville, it was because no one wanted large sedans anymore, never mind the people buying 300's, Avalons and Maxima's.
In fact, Pontiac's products don't exist in a vacuum. Yes, Pontiac had a V6 coupe with a manual transmission. The only problem is other brands (Honda) sold a much better manual V6 coupe. Also, V6 coupes with manual transmissions are supposed to be fun to drive, and the G6 with the 3.9L was not.
Same goes for the Grand Prix GXP. Now, I have a soft spot for this car, but it was a very compromised package in terms of looks and its interior. It also, like the Bonneville GXP, came too late to help its dying model.
Solstice and Torrent GXP are nice, and I believe they both sell quite well. Both would sell better had GM not decided to give other brands (Saturn, Chevy) duplicates. I also love the G8, and am hoping it gets to dealers soon and does well. It doesn't make me all that optimistic though, to read that GM has already canceled the car's replacement.
Pontiac has had many models over the past few years that could have been absolute hits for little to no investment. But GM seems unwilling to take this last step for the brand, and seems to have no clear vision for it. I think that's a shame because Pontiac could still play a very vital role in the new GM.
P.S. I drive a Grand Prix GTP, and my father until recently drove an '04 GTO. Many of the Pontiac people on this board, most notably Brandon and JasonE, have also owned several recent Pontiacs.
You are also a rarity in that you (and your father) actually put you actual cash on a Pontiac. I haven't especially been a Pontiac fan since the last of the T/A 6.6s rolled off the assembly line. But all of the Pontiacs that have caught my attention since then came out in the past 4 years. The GTO, GXP Grand Prix, Solstice, G8, and this summer's G8 ST. The G6 is selling extremely well for GM, and it's the only Espilon coupe GM makes here in the US.
But it seems many self-proclaimed Pontiac enthusiasts completely overlook the cars that me (a Ford fan that came to GM) find both intresting, exciting, and cars I'd actually consider buying. Even the G5 Cobalt-lookalike is doing amazingly well considering there's nothing going into advertizing and (at least here in the US) it's a single body style.
The issue here is that Pontiac already is a performance division. It's recetly made & is making cars that are actually quite good from a performance standpoint. However, building cars based on performance isn't going to pay the bills.... or keep Pontiac alive.
The worse car I ever drove in my life was a final year Bonneville. It looked great, but it was sluggish, handled like crap, rode softer than a Lincoln, and quite simply had no reason whatsoever for being in existance. It wasn't for older folks: tons of small buttons and push switches, not the best guage legibilty for failing eyesight, and a design that appealed to younger folks. It wasn't for younger folks: an Impala I had earlier felt like a sports car next to the Bonneville even though the Bonne looked the part. The Grand Prix ended up with 60%+ going to rental fleets with paying customers almost an afterthought.
I feel the focus on performance that many demand is misguided in that the focus really needs to be on regular models. G6 is an example.
Registered User
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 3,011
From: Exton, Pennsylvania
If Pontiac is already a performance division, it is a woeful one. It is definetly nothing like BMW in that regard, or even Mazda, or Nissan. If you want any performance out of a Pontiac, you have to foot the bill for a premium trim car. At least with BMWs or Mazdas there is something sporty about their econoboxes. A G6 is not a sporty car. a G5 is not a sporty car. The GTO certainly didn't feel like a sporty car. I have no idea about the G8.
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 632
From: NC
Some items of intrest.
1. Yes, GM is using CAFE as a reason not to produce it's Zeta RWD vehicles (though I still call it an excuse). The 1 mpg difference in CAFE figures that GM totes is for volume V6 models..NOT top V8 models. The RWD Zeta-based V6 Commodore is actually a couple of pounds lighter than the FWD Chevrolet Impala LTZ V6. The thing is that based on a the sales weighted average of CAFE, GM's crystal ball predicts that (again...overall) sales of the 6.2 V8 will be sufficient enough to make the [i]complete line 1 mpg short of an Espilon-based Impala.
1. Yes, GM is using CAFE as a reason not to produce it's Zeta RWD vehicles (though I still call it an excuse). The 1 mpg difference in CAFE figures that GM totes is for volume V6 models..NOT top V8 models. The RWD Zeta-based V6 Commodore is actually a couple of pounds lighter than the FWD Chevrolet Impala LTZ V6. The thing is that based on a the sales weighted average of CAFE, GM's crystal ball predicts that (again...overall) sales of the 6.2 V8 will be sufficient enough to make the [i]complete line 1 mpg short of an Espilon-based Impala.
When you look at the volume Impala sells, that's no small item. If GM used a 5.3 as top engine in the Zeta Impala, that would all but eliminate this issue.... however, that wasn't the plan.
I'll tell you why: POLITICS and PURE IGNORANCE.
2. Ford is very, very deep into a RWD program. Ford's Executive Director of Large & Medium Vehicles, Paul Mascarenas, is not only the brains behind the Taurus, but he's also the reason why Lincoln's new flagship (the MKS) is FWD and based on the Five Hundred (which in turn is based on a Volvo), and very nearly turned the Crown Vic replacement into a FWD/AWD D3C chassis-based vehicle as well. He doesn't have the influence he had not too many years ago, and the Crown Vic will be replaced by a proper RWD vehicle. The change came too late for the MKS (formerly tagged inside Ford as the Lincoln Continental) which was originally concieved as a RWD vehicle back when Jac Nasser was still running Ford.
4. There are a number of cars headed for, and these are the key words: "Buick-Pontiac-GMC". Between this summer and 3 years from now, Buick is getting a Zeta-based sedan which will be a little longer than the G8.
Pontiac is getting the G8 ST and a revised Solstice.
The Lecrosse will be redone on Espilon and will probally be called Regal. Pontiac as a stand alone brand (as well as Buick) is for all practical purposes over.
5. Finally, regarding the Trans Am. Pontiac wants a coupe, and GM is very aware that P-B needs a coupe. The issue isn't $200 million (which is more marketing costs than actual development costs) to create a "Pontiac Camaro". The issue is what return is that going to have on the investment, and how would it be different enough from Camaro without canabalizing it's sales.
In case you were wondering about Chrysler's RWD program, it seems that their RWD program's future is going to be rescued by 3 things. First, heavy marketing and sales of diesel and alternative power for their LX cars.
Second, by doing what amounts to an emergency revision of the Sebring-Avenger in order to up the volume to offset the LX cars drag on economy. Finally, to quickly get a small cars into the market. The Hornet's coming, but also a proper replacement for the Neon is in route as well.
It's funny that GM seems to be the only manufacturer preaching gloom and doom and threatening everything. Word at C&G is that this is because of internal politics that have been raging since day one of Lutz tenure. The same source also says that Zeta and Lutz are losing the battle.