No more Trans Am....
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 284
From: Pa
No more Trans Am....
http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dl...802120311/1203
Buick, Pontiac and GMC dealers will get 12 new or special-edition vehicles over the next 20 months — but they won't get a Pontiac Trans Am.
Pontiac had lobbied for a sibling vehicle to the Chevrolet Camaro, which is scheduled to arrive in February 2009.
General Motors' plan to make Pontiac a rear-wheel-drive performance car division is likely to be scaled back because of fuel economy regulations, GM leaders told dealers at the make meeting.
One dealer said the business case for the Trans Am didn't compute.
"It was an economic situation," said Lynn Thompson, owner of Thompson Motor Sales in Springfield, Mo. "It would cost $200 million to bring out the vehicle."
Pontiac will remain a car-only brand for the foreseeable future, dealers were told. But because of new legislation requiring vehicles to reach a fleet average of 35 mpg by 2020, Pontiac might not end up as GM's performance division, dealers said they were told.
"The plan is being tweaked because of the gas situation," Thompson said. "I hope they don't give up on performance because they don't have to. You can use four-cylinder engines to achieve incredible power."
B-P-G will give dealers six new or special-edition vehicles — such as the special-edition GMC Sierra pickup, called Pro Grade — this year. They will get another six next year, dealers who attended the meeting told Automotive News.
Executives also told dealers GM will build nearly 55,000 Buick Enclave crossovers this year. Dealers said Jim Bunnell, head of Buick-Pontiac-GMC, told them GM increased Enclave production by 41 percent from the initial production plan. A dealer said Bunnell told them Buick built 6,400 Enclaves in January, and then added, "But it's still not enough."
Buick, Pontiac and GMC dealers will get 12 new or special-edition vehicles over the next 20 months — but they won't get a Pontiac Trans Am.
Pontiac had lobbied for a sibling vehicle to the Chevrolet Camaro, which is scheduled to arrive in February 2009.
General Motors' plan to make Pontiac a rear-wheel-drive performance car division is likely to be scaled back because of fuel economy regulations, GM leaders told dealers at the make meeting.
One dealer said the business case for the Trans Am didn't compute.
"It was an economic situation," said Lynn Thompson, owner of Thompson Motor Sales in Springfield, Mo. "It would cost $200 million to bring out the vehicle."
Pontiac will remain a car-only brand for the foreseeable future, dealers were told. But because of new legislation requiring vehicles to reach a fleet average of 35 mpg by 2020, Pontiac might not end up as GM's performance division, dealers said they were told.
"The plan is being tweaked because of the gas situation," Thompson said. "I hope they don't give up on performance because they don't have to. You can use four-cylinder engines to achieve incredible power."
B-P-G will give dealers six new or special-edition vehicles — such as the special-edition GMC Sierra pickup, called Pro Grade — this year. They will get another six next year, dealers who attended the meeting told Automotive News.
Executives also told dealers GM will build nearly 55,000 Buick Enclave crossovers this year. Dealers said Jim Bunnell, head of Buick-Pontiac-GMC, told them GM increased Enclave production by 41 percent from the initial production plan. A dealer said Bunnell told them Buick built 6,400 Enclaves in January, and then added, "But it's still not enough."
Last edited by 2001Firehawk; Feb 12, 2008 at 11:56 AM.
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From: Hebron, KY
I'll also add that I don't know why GM has to abandon plans for rwd performance just because of CAFE. Is BMW going to rethink its identity?
You make concessions with powertrains if necessary--more 4 cyl, higher priced and limited V8s, and you scale down the dimensions. I'd be perfectly content with a Pontiac like this. They really need the Alpha platform that appeared to be the brand's savior a few months ago.
You make concessions with powertrains if necessary--more 4 cyl, higher priced and limited V8s, and you scale down the dimensions. I'd be perfectly content with a Pontiac like this. They really need the Alpha platform that appeared to be the brand's savior a few months ago.
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Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 610
From: Akron, OH.
Is the mpg killer the rwd or the 4000lb curb weight???
I did not expect the firebird to be back but it looks like pontiac will not get much of any performance outside the G8 and Solstice. How do you call it performance division when they sell the same exact stuff as Chevy anyways.
They should have said "GM executives thought that investment in more costlier high strength steel and alumium is more than they can afford right now so you will have to settle for FWD because its the easiest way they can save 1 mpg."
So what are these "New" vehicles they are getting in the next 20 months, the G8 and a Reskinned Vibe, what else is there?
They really need a G6 replacement, same size, restyled, and a NEW interior.
I did not expect the firebird to be back but it looks like pontiac will not get much of any performance outside the G8 and Solstice. How do you call it performance division when they sell the same exact stuff as Chevy anyways.
They should have said "GM executives thought that investment in more costlier high strength steel and alumium is more than they can afford right now so you will have to settle for FWD because its the easiest way they can save 1 mpg."
So what are these "New" vehicles they are getting in the next 20 months, the G8 and a Reskinned Vibe, what else is there?
They really need a G6 replacement, same size, restyled, and a NEW interior.
Last edited by Flip94ta; Feb 12, 2008 at 10:29 AM.
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,958
From: Kansas City, MO
Seeing as Lutz specifically said "No, that’s not something we are planning. We are not going to do that car," when asked about a Firebird almost two years ago, I don't see why anyone would act surprised.
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,448
From: Irving, TX
I'll also add that I don't know why GM has to abandon plans for rwd performance just because of CAFE. Is BMW going to rethink its identity?
You make concessions with powertrains if necessary--more 4 cyl, higher priced and limited V8s, and you scale down the dimensions. I'd be perfectly content with a Pontiac like this. They really need the Alpha platform that appeared to be the brand's savior a few months ago.
You make concessions with powertrains if necessary--more 4 cyl, higher priced and limited V8s, and you scale down the dimensions. I'd be perfectly content with a Pontiac like this. They really need the Alpha platform that appeared to be the brand's savior a few months ago.
http://www.autoblog.com/2008/01/22/b...g-green-brand/
Everyone is having to address this change in some way. BMW is thinking of a new brand with more fuel efficient FWD cars.
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 3,650
From: Indianapolis, IN
Or like the discontinued Lincoln LS, replaced with a fwd / awd car?
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 101
From: Richmond, VA
http://www.motorauthority.com/cars/f...-in-the-works/
Ford exec confirms RWD Lincoln plans
Posted on Saturday 12 January 2008
All the RWD excitement of late seems to be associated with GM and its upcoming range of rear driving muscle cars, namely the Pontiac G8 and new Camaro, however, the Blue Oval was never going to just sit idly by and let GM have all the fun. Ford has made no secret of its RWD ambitions, which is to emulate GM by calling on its Australian division to engineer a future range of RWD drivers. The good news is that Ford’s other brands, including Lincoln, are geared up to launch a new generation of rear drivers.
Lincoln already revealed the RWD MKR concept at last year’s Detroit Auto Show and now Ford’s group vice-president in charge of global product development, Derrick Kuzak, has admitted there is a RWD Lincoln model in the works.
According to the guys at Car and Driver, several Ford and Mercury models could also get the RWD treatment. Development work is said to be taking place in Australia but there are no plans to import any Aussie built models to the U.S. in the same way that GM will be importing the Pontiac G8.
Hopefully Ford won't back down the way GM did.
Ford exec confirms RWD Lincoln plans
Posted on Saturday 12 January 2008
All the RWD excitement of late seems to be associated with GM and its upcoming range of rear driving muscle cars, namely the Pontiac G8 and new Camaro, however, the Blue Oval was never going to just sit idly by and let GM have all the fun. Ford has made no secret of its RWD ambitions, which is to emulate GM by calling on its Australian division to engineer a future range of RWD drivers. The good news is that Ford’s other brands, including Lincoln, are geared up to launch a new generation of rear drivers.
Lincoln already revealed the RWD MKR concept at last year’s Detroit Auto Show and now Ford’s group vice-president in charge of global product development, Derrick Kuzak, has admitted there is a RWD Lincoln model in the works.
According to the guys at Car and Driver, several Ford and Mercury models could also get the RWD treatment. Development work is said to be taking place in Australia but there are no plans to import any Aussie built models to the U.S. in the same way that GM will be importing the Pontiac G8.
Hopefully Ford won't back down the way GM did.
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 241
From: Kings Bay, Georgia
GM is using CAFE as nothing more than an excuse to cut plans for Pontiac because they are still bleeding cash due to excessive overhead (read- labor and retirement).
Poncho is emasculated in the name of economy. Until GM is wildly profitable (which will never happen with cars built by current labor) a true performance division (Poncho or otherwise) is a pipe-dream.
Labor and legacy costs don't bode well for the bottom line. An un-profitable company can't afford to be innovative (and fun).
Poncho is emasculated in the name of economy. Until GM is wildly profitable (which will never happen with cars built by current labor) a true performance division (Poncho or otherwise) is a pipe-dream.
Labor and legacy costs don't bode well for the bottom line. An un-profitable company can't afford to be innovative (and fun).
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 13,713
From: The Golden State
Some items of intrest.
1. Yes, GM is using CAFE as a reason not to produce it's Zeta RWD vehicles (though I still call it an excuse). The 1 mpg difference in CAFE figures that GM totes is for volume V6 models..NOT top V8 models. The RWD Zeta-based V6 Commodore is actually a couple of pounds lighter than the FWD Chevrolet Impala LTZ V6. The thing is that based on a the sales weighted average of CAFE, GM's crystal ball predicts that (again...overall) sales of the 6.2 V8 will be sufficient enough to make the [i]complete line 1 mpg short of an Espilon-based Impala. When you look at the volume Impala sells, that's no small item. If GM used a 5.3 as top engine in the Zeta Impala, that would all but eliminate this issue.... however, that wasn't the plan.
2. Ford is very, very deep into a RWD program. Ford's Executive Director of Large & Medium Vehicles, Paul Mascarenas, is not only the brains behind the Taurus, but he's also the reason why Lincoln's new flagship (the MKS) is FWD and based on the Five Hundred (which in turn is based on a Volvo), and very nearly turned the Crown Vic replacement into a FWD/AWD D3C chassis-based vehicle as well. He doesn't have the influence he had not too many years ago, and the Crown Vic will be replaced by a proper RWD vehicle. The change came too late for the MKS (formerly tagged inside Ford as the Lincoln Continental) which was originally concieved as a RWD vehicle back when Jac Nasser was still running Ford.
3. For those of you who didn't know already, the current Ford Taurus is going to have a stunningly short life. The Ford Taurus is getting a 100% complete makeover for next year. No, NOT simply a new nose and tail..... the whole car is going to be redesigned! It's still going to have the same architecture, but the sheetmetal and interior will be new, and word is it's going to be a knockout. It's perhaps the 1st all new (or mostly all new) vehicle that's been completely done under Alan Mullany's tenure at Ford, so in a way, next year's Taurus is to Mullany what the new Malibu is to Bob Lutz. A benchmark as to where the company is headed.
4. There are a number of cars headed for, and these are the key words: "Buick-Pontiac-GMC". Between this summer and 3 years from now, Buick is getting a Zeta-based sedan which will be a little longer than the G8. Pontiac is getting the G8 ST and a revised Solstice. The Lecrosse will be redone on Espilon and will probally be called Regal. Pontiac as a stand alone brand (as well as Buick) is for all practical purposes over.
5. Finally, regarding the Trans Am. Pontiac wants a coupe, and GM is very aware that P-B needs a coupe. The issue isn't $200 million (which is more marketing costs than actual development costs) to create a "Pontiac Camaro". The issue is what return is that going to have on the investment, and how would it be different enough from Camaro without canabalizing it's sales. Although most all will swear otherwise, Camaro will infact pull most all potential Firebird enthusiasts since there will also be highly packaged Camaros (unlike last time when you chose between a stark base model and a relatively stark V8). If GM expects to be able to sell only a certain number of coupes (say 100K for instance), it's far cheaper for them to market a single vehicle than to spend money developing and even worse, marketing, two. It also frees up more money to put into that single model as well.
In case you were wondering about Chrysler's RWD program, it seems that their RWD program's future is going to be rescued by 3 things. First, heavy marketing and sales of diesel and alternative power for their LX cars. Second, by doing what amounts to an emergency revision of the Sebring-Avenger in order to up the volume to offset the LX cars drag on economy. Finally, to quickly get a small cars into the market. The Hornet's coming, but also a proper replacement for the Neon is in route as well.
1. Yes, GM is using CAFE as a reason not to produce it's Zeta RWD vehicles (though I still call it an excuse). The 1 mpg difference in CAFE figures that GM totes is for volume V6 models..NOT top V8 models. The RWD Zeta-based V6 Commodore is actually a couple of pounds lighter than the FWD Chevrolet Impala LTZ V6. The thing is that based on a the sales weighted average of CAFE, GM's crystal ball predicts that (again...overall) sales of the 6.2 V8 will be sufficient enough to make the [i]complete line 1 mpg short of an Espilon-based Impala. When you look at the volume Impala sells, that's no small item. If GM used a 5.3 as top engine in the Zeta Impala, that would all but eliminate this issue.... however, that wasn't the plan.
2. Ford is very, very deep into a RWD program. Ford's Executive Director of Large & Medium Vehicles, Paul Mascarenas, is not only the brains behind the Taurus, but he's also the reason why Lincoln's new flagship (the MKS) is FWD and based on the Five Hundred (which in turn is based on a Volvo), and very nearly turned the Crown Vic replacement into a FWD/AWD D3C chassis-based vehicle as well. He doesn't have the influence he had not too many years ago, and the Crown Vic will be replaced by a proper RWD vehicle. The change came too late for the MKS (formerly tagged inside Ford as the Lincoln Continental) which was originally concieved as a RWD vehicle back when Jac Nasser was still running Ford.
3. For those of you who didn't know already, the current Ford Taurus is going to have a stunningly short life. The Ford Taurus is getting a 100% complete makeover for next year. No, NOT simply a new nose and tail..... the whole car is going to be redesigned! It's still going to have the same architecture, but the sheetmetal and interior will be new, and word is it's going to be a knockout. It's perhaps the 1st all new (or mostly all new) vehicle that's been completely done under Alan Mullany's tenure at Ford, so in a way, next year's Taurus is to Mullany what the new Malibu is to Bob Lutz. A benchmark as to where the company is headed.
4. There are a number of cars headed for, and these are the key words: "Buick-Pontiac-GMC". Between this summer and 3 years from now, Buick is getting a Zeta-based sedan which will be a little longer than the G8. Pontiac is getting the G8 ST and a revised Solstice. The Lecrosse will be redone on Espilon and will probally be called Regal. Pontiac as a stand alone brand (as well as Buick) is for all practical purposes over.
5. Finally, regarding the Trans Am. Pontiac wants a coupe, and GM is very aware that P-B needs a coupe. The issue isn't $200 million (which is more marketing costs than actual development costs) to create a "Pontiac Camaro". The issue is what return is that going to have on the investment, and how would it be different enough from Camaro without canabalizing it's sales. Although most all will swear otherwise, Camaro will infact pull most all potential Firebird enthusiasts since there will also be highly packaged Camaros (unlike last time when you chose between a stark base model and a relatively stark V8). If GM expects to be able to sell only a certain number of coupes (say 100K for instance), it's far cheaper for them to market a single vehicle than to spend money developing and even worse, marketing, two. It also frees up more money to put into that single model as well.
In case you were wondering about Chrysler's RWD program, it seems that their RWD program's future is going to be rescued by 3 things. First, heavy marketing and sales of diesel and alternative power for their LX cars. Second, by doing what amounts to an emergency revision of the Sebring-Avenger in order to up the volume to offset the LX cars drag on economy. Finally, to quickly get a small cars into the market. The Hornet's coming, but also a proper replacement for the Neon is in route as well.
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,448
From: Irving, TX
Impala LS 3,674lbs
Impala LT 3,674lbs
Impala LTZ 3,729lbs
Impala SS 3,790lbs
OMEGA V6 4sp Auto 1690kg 3718lbs
BERLINA V6 4sp Auto 1705kg 3751lbs (already heavier than the LTZ)
SV6 V6 5sp Auto 1735kg 3817lbs (heaver than the Impala SS)
CALAIS V6 5sp Auto 1750kg 3850lbs (this is more luxury, probably better compared to the buicks)
CALAIS V V6 5sp Auto 1780kg 3916lbs (again, more luxury)
I also thought that the Commodore's were more of a Malibu size, which I know is bigger now. I can't find the weights of the Malibu, but here is the Aura weights.
Aura Green Line 3529 lbs (don't count this, it is a 4 cyl)
Aura XE I4 3446 lbs (don't count this, it is a 4 cyl)
Aura XE V6 3585 lbs
Aura XR V6 3635 lbs
Now, these are definitely lighter, but interestingly enough, weight isn't everything. The Impala LTZ gets better mileage than the Aura XR, and pretty much matches the Aura XE. Crazy world.
http://www.holden.com.au/pdf/choosea...VE_Weights.pdf
http://www.chevrolet.com/impala/specifications/ (click on capacities)
http://www.saturn.com/saturn/vehicles/aura/pricing.jsp (click on specs)