Well the real issue isn't about the enthusiast cars. Its that they half-assed the Grand Prix and the G6, and just told the dealers about all the amazing Buicks & GMCs coming.

Why have all the overhead and expense of brand advertising for Pontiac if they're only going to really use the brand for a couple enthusiast cars (which would probably sell better at Chevy anyway)? I think this might be the end-game for Pontiac, and not in the devil's advocate sense.

 

The Camaro SS was just as much of a "tuner" car as the Firehawk was. Both were done by SLP.

 

I know a lot of Chevy enthusiasts who would have loved to have the opportunity to buy a rebadged Holden with a bowtie on it. Heck, if the GTO had been a Chevy, I'd have purchased one. You're basically proving Guy and Charlie's argument for them... Pontiac enthusiasts have been getting all the cool toys (GTO, G8, Solstice) while the Chevy guys have been overlooked save for a few ricerockets (Cobalt SS, HHR SS) and all the Pontiac guys do is complain about it. I say cut the cord and kill off Pontiac and transfer the toys to the other GM divisions. (j/k... I really don't feel that way.)

 

The GTO was a limited run from the beginning with a limited number of cars to be build regardless of sales or an optional V6. To me a regular Camaro or Z28 looks more bland than a GTO. Perhaps that is part of the reason why the 4th gen died; god knows the sales were horrible.

I think a lot of GTO owners will look at buying a G8. Owning a GTO is a great experience and having the G8 which is basically improved upon in every area should make the G8 an exceptional car.

 

True, but the firehawks are much more rare, especially the one I own. But yeah, neither really had any huge performance tweaks although mine is as tweaked as you could get it from SLP with the Bilstein suspension and Auburn rear-end.

 

Well we tried shopping pontiac this past summer. Look at a G6 interior and then shop the competition, it was the worst interior, the old malibu was even better. Came very close on a Solstice, but options like ABS, TCS and Limited slip and Automatic tranmission drive the nice base price up quickly and we were sedan shopping, still came close The G6 coupe mentioned earlier with the M6 had HORRIBLE gas mileage, it was 23 or 24 in 2007 numbers IIRC. Gas was $2.89 a gallon across the street from the dealer, the 6 speed auto GTP rated at 28, it was no comparision, I miss a stick but not that bad.

It is true that the G6 is second best seller, and Pontiac is #2 division, but whats in the product line? GP is just about dead, there goes a bunch of rental sales, the G8 probably wont be able to replace those numbers, even with the ST added in thats debateable, although profits will be better... hopefully.

I dont know if the Torrent is on or not this month, I thought they were killing it yet theres a GXP? The Vibe looks just about the same, did it get a new interior? G5 sales can only go down with no new features and updated competition. What are they supposed to make money on? I can only see the G8 as a high margin vehicle, they're not making money on G5, G6, Vibe. The solstice probably falls in the middle.

I expect saturn to pass up pontiac in a few years unless something changes, the Outlook and Vue will have decent numbers, aura will probably hold at 60K, 80K if they would give me my wagon. Astra could really pass G5 in sales, especially if a redline turbo comes online for $20K.
Could Pontiac's lack of crossovers kill it?

I would love to see a firebird, is the name too tainted though? I dont think theres a chance with the solstice going to the next C platform. That has $30-40K written all over it. Maybe an alpha with a 3.2 DI turbo V-6. That also sounds like $30K, next to the $30K G8, too much overlap, throw in Chevy or buick for even more overlap.

Pontiac's new role should be scion like, its a no brainer, B-P-G gets entry line, luxury line and trucks. Chevy gets value plus SS line. Saturn gets opels and value lines with more euro feel and a "Hey we're not GM feel".

 

There is no reason to have Saturn and BPG if we are going to go down this road. Really there is no need for any of them except Chevrolet and Cadillac if we really want to talk about need. Especially if they keep on talking about brand differentiation but continuing to do the same badge engineered vehicles across divisions.

In a world where they actually wanted some differentiation and wanted to keep all the divisions then someone would need to step up and force some focus and overlap reduction.

 

I've been reading your posts long enough to guess this is at least partly tongue in cheek and meant to draw out Poncho people. Okay, I'll bite.

Let me get this straight: Pontiac is building great vehicles and the only problem is that customers are too lazy to buy them? Riiigghht.

We've heard this argument before from GM's folks. When they canceled the Camaro, they said there was no coupe market, despite that other coupe that does quite well. When they dropped Bonneville, it was because no one wanted large sedans anymore, never mind the people buying 300's, Avalons and Maxima's.

In fact, Pontiac's products don't exist in a vacuum. Yes, Pontiac had a V6 coupe with a manual transmission. The only problem is other brands (Honda) sold a much better manual V6 coupe. Also, V6 coupes with manual transmissions are supposed to be fun to drive, and the G6 with the 3.9L was not.

Same goes for the Grand Prix GXP. Now, I have a soft spot for this car, but it was a very compromised package in terms of looks and its interior. It also, like the Bonneville GXP, came too late to help its dying model.

Solstice and Torrent GXP are nice, and I believe they both sell quite well. Both would sell better had GM not decided to give other brands (Saturn, Chevy) duplicates. I also love the G8, and am hoping it gets to dealers soon and does well. It doesn't make me all that optimistic though, to read that GM has already canceled the car's replacement.

Pontiac has had many models over the past few years that could have been absolute hits for little to no investment. But GM seems unwilling to take this last step for the brand, and seems to have no clear vision for it. I think that's a shame because Pontiac could still play a very vital role in the new GM.

P.S. I drive a Grand Prix GTP, and my father until recently drove an '04 GTO. Many of the Pontiac people on this board, most notably Brandon and JasonE, have also owned several recent Pontiacs.

 

The GTO wasn't cool on the outside. It looked like an overgrown G6. Everyone said it performed great, but almost nobody liked the exterior. There were plenty of 2006 (final year) models left on the lot in 2007. It really was a bad rebadge job that disappointed most. It is also dead now. The G8 is pretty cool, but GM was considering a Chevy Impala that was also off of Zeta. Chevy wasn't getting overlooked, it was just next in line for the product.

The Solstice is cool and Chevy has nothing like it, but Saturn does. If you at every GXP model, there is an equivalent rebadge and the Pontiacs have interiors that are worse. Chevy has more than a few rice rockets. Corvette, TB SS, the new Camaro, Impala SS are all V8s. Before that, there was a Malibu SS, Equinox SS, which are about as exciting as the G6 GXP or the Torrent GXP. The Grand Prix is an Impala. The G5 is a Cobalt and it doesn't get a blower. What I am saying is there is nothing special about the Pontiacs as far as performance goes.

I know the GTO was a limited run, and could have been extended if it worked well. It didn't. I don't think most people would agree that a GTO looked better than a regular Camaro. I can't prove that, other than a super scientific cz28 poll, which won't tell us anything. For what it is worth, I thought that the 4th gen Firebird looked a lot better than the 4th gen Camaro. Besides, even if it was less bland than the 4th gen Camaro, it was still bland.

I think the G8 is going to be a great car. I think it has the V6 models to make it main stream and the power for the enthusiasts. I don't think that this one car justifies having Pontiac. I don't think this plus a Solstice justifies having Pontiac. Every other Pontiac is a Chevy. The performance side of Pontiac isn't there. Why does GM need a performance division that has less performance than Chevy?

 

Actually, you're wrong. They COULD NOT make *ANY* 2007 model year GTOs as the GTO did not meet the 2007 smart airbag standards. And since the car/platform it was based on was already shut down in Oz, they were not going to invest any money in reworking the airbag system.

The rest of your OPINIONS about the GTO's styling are just that. I personally wouldn't drive a bad acid trip styled LS1 bird if someone paid me too, so it's different strokes for different folks.

 

Who cares if some people thought the GTOs looked bland. I find it interesting though that the argument is that Pontiac people didn't buy Pontiacs like the GTO, but the sales numbers of the GTO are defended in other threads...

 

You're wrong*. Part of being cool is not shouting out about how cool you are. I thought the GTO was very cool, though the Monaro front end would have been even cooler.


I think a G8 will likely be my first Pontiac, however, as it is even cooler.




* Yes, I know there is no right and wrong for subjective judgements like cool. I just get tired of all the complaints about the GTO.

 

Some people seem to forget that the original GTO was just a bland Pontiac Tempest with a big engine shoved in it. I bet if Pontiac did make it more aggressive looking people would complain that it was too over the top and not a sleeper like the orginal.

 

That's so true. Also, it's kind of inaccurate to act like they were just languishing on lots after 06. It seems to me a lot of dealers held on to their last 06s and refused to make any deals on them, just like they did with the last of the fbodies in 02, which also sat on lots for a while.

Also, basically all of the left over 06 GTOs were A4 cars. I can recall seeing a lot of people searching high and low on the gto boards looking for dealers with brand new M6 cars at the end of the run, and not having much luck. IIRC, the GTO had a higher take rate for the 6 speed then even the fbody did, as well as the vette. IMO, take rate for the manual should rank up there as an indicator as to how much of an enthusiasts car it really was.

It's also worth pointing out that the GTO sold basically on par with the LS1 firebird, and certainly outsold the WS6 alone, which is the firebird model in terms of price and content it could most be equated too. GTO also outsold the cobra mustang pretty handily.

 

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