Motor Trends Alpha facts"
Registered User
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 9,705
From: Oakland, California
In all honesty I wouldn't worry about CAFE killing the Camaro. If the US auto market doesn't recover quick enough for GM, Chrysler and Ford to be CAFE positive across all vehicles in the next few years, I wouldn't be too surprised if the government relaxes or delays the new CAFE requirements to protect their investment.
I'm also not convinced that the only way to make Camaro less CAFE negative is to put it on a severe diet. Selling a boat-load of Chevy Cruzes should also help.
I'm also not convinced that the only way to make Camaro less CAFE negative is to put it on a severe diet. Selling a boat-load of Chevy Cruzes should also help.
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 380
From: Gretna (Omaha), NE
This is such an interesting read because it pulls up so many areas that fit my demographic. I'm 35 (Well, gonna me in May), Married & have a family. I'm a performance oriented guy and I do in fact own 2 camaros.
I'm a GM nutswinger and that's no secret... Growing up my folks where the same way and I grew up in the back seat of a Monte Carlo SS Aerocoupe. It had room! it had performance! it had the looks! It had it all and allowed my old man to keep his *****!
This is what I wanted for my family... I longed for a V8 rwd car for my family. 2 or 4 door, it didn't really matter. I wanted a Family Camaro/Corvette! Later on I started in sales and now use my car for my job that forced me into 4 doors. It took GM forever to bring me what I wanted. Granted there was the CTS-V but again... I've got a family to raise! The last Monte was close but still, no RWD... The G8 was the home run for me and I ran to it with open arms. I was the 3rd person in Omaha to get one! This is the model of what family guys want! Why else has the Charger done so well? or even the Challenger for that matter? Guys want performance, capability & Swagger! The Camaro is great for pre & post family or for a commuter only car but not for those of us raising families that still want to be cool!
I have always loved what Holden does... To me, Holden is the modern day version of GM in the late 70's & early 80's. Selling in the masses the cars that people want! Why is this model so hard for GMNA to incorporate? Even if it was on a small scale I bet you could make a case for it very easily!
Heck, why can't we just have a Holden division in NA? seriously!
G8 sold like crazy in it's last days in the worst environment possible! It's really to bad that they've been stung twice on Holden cars because I bet if GM would go back to it again they could be succesful.
I'm a GM nutswinger and that's no secret... Growing up my folks where the same way and I grew up in the back seat of a Monte Carlo SS Aerocoupe. It had room! it had performance! it had the looks! It had it all and allowed my old man to keep his *****!
This is what I wanted for my family... I longed for a V8 rwd car for my family. 2 or 4 door, it didn't really matter. I wanted a Family Camaro/Corvette! Later on I started in sales and now use my car for my job that forced me into 4 doors. It took GM forever to bring me what I wanted. Granted there was the CTS-V but again... I've got a family to raise! The last Monte was close but still, no RWD... The G8 was the home run for me and I ran to it with open arms. I was the 3rd person in Omaha to get one! This is the model of what family guys want! Why else has the Charger done so well? or even the Challenger for that matter? Guys want performance, capability & Swagger! The Camaro is great for pre & post family or for a commuter only car but not for those of us raising families that still want to be cool!
I have always loved what Holden does... To me, Holden is the modern day version of GM in the late 70's & early 80's. Selling in the masses the cars that people want! Why is this model so hard for GMNA to incorporate? Even if it was on a small scale I bet you could make a case for it very easily!
Heck, why can't we just have a Holden division in NA? seriously!
G8 sold like crazy in it's last days in the worst environment possible! It's really to bad that they've been stung twice on Holden cars because I bet if GM would go back to it again they could be succesful.
Registered User
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 3,132
From: Santa Clara, CA
This is what I wanted for my family... I longed for a V8 rwd car for my family. 2 or 4 door, it didn't really matter. I wanted a Family Camaro/Corvette! Later on I started in sales and now use my car for my job that forced me into 4 doors. It took GM forever to bring me what I wanted. Granted there was the CTS-V but again... I've got a family to raise! The last Monte was close but still, no RWD... The G8 was the home run for me and I ran to it with open arms. I was the 3rd person in Omaha to get one! This is the model of what family guys want! Why else has the Charger done so well? or even the Challenger for that matter? Guys want performance, capability & Swagger! The Camaro is great for pre & post family or for a commuter only car but not for those of us raising families that still want to be cool!
I have always loved what Holden does... To me, Holden is the modern day version of GM in the late 70's & early 80's. Selling in the masses the cars that people want! Why is this model so hard for GMNA to incorporate? Even if it was on a small scale I bet you could make a case for it very easily!
Heck, why can't we just have a Holden division in NA? seriously!
G8 sold like crazy in it's last days in the worst environment possible! It's really to bad that they've been stung twice on Holden cars because I bet if GM would go back to it again they could be succesful.
I have always loved what Holden does... To me, Holden is the modern day version of GM in the late 70's & early 80's. Selling in the masses the cars that people want! Why is this model so hard for GMNA to incorporate? Even if it was on a small scale I bet you could make a case for it very easily!
Heck, why can't we just have a Holden division in NA? seriously!
G8 sold like crazy in it's last days in the worst environment possible! It's really to bad that they've been stung twice on Holden cars because I bet if GM would go back to it again they could be succesful.
Registered User
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 3,132
From: Santa Clara, CA
Takeaway: That's pretty much the demographic that killed the 4th gen, like it or not. While the battle continues on GT vs SS by rags and gearheads everywhere, the real battle is waged by V6 vs V6. In that battle, GM is loosing again and Ford is about the kick the ante even higher with the new V6.
The next Camaro (if there is one) needs to offer more fun factor in the V6 model while being lighter, more powerful, and more nimble. While the price may go up for the V6 to do it on alpha, a $24k base V6 that has a lot more spunk and character would sell better than the base V6 today.
People drive the V6 and V8 and look at the V6 as purely inferior right now - they need an actual reason to pick one over the other other than they can't afford the V8. Mustang doesn't really have that. The Genesis Coupe is trying to with the Track pack turbo4 versus the loaded V6. I don't know which path is better, but GM needs to distinguish the V6 Camaro as more than "the cheap model" or it is doomed to fail when the V8 is so many miles better.
The next Camaro (if there is one) needs to offer more fun factor in the V6 model while being lighter, more powerful, and more nimble. While the price may go up for the V6 to do it on alpha, a $24k base V6 that has a lot more spunk and character would sell better than the base V6 today.
People drive the V6 and V8 and look at the V6 as purely inferior right now - they need an actual reason to pick one over the other other than they can't afford the V8. Mustang doesn't really have that. The Genesis Coupe is trying to with the Track pack turbo4 versus the loaded V6. I don't know which path is better, but GM needs to distinguish the V6 Camaro as more than "the cheap model" or it is doomed to fail when the V8 is so many miles better.
I don't think you can build an appealing (read well-equipped, good gas mileage, good performance with 4 cyl) coupe for the youth demographic on the same chassis as a fire-breathing V8. The size, weight, and costs are wrong. What Chevy could to do is build a Cruze coupe with the same styling cues as a Camaro. The traditional pony car of '64-'72 had its highest volumes with pedestrian I6 or small V8 engines that did a 1/4 mile in the 17 to 20 second range. My uncle, who is only a mild car enthusiast, had an early model Camaro he bought used in his late 20s. I think it had a 327 V8 and a powerglide. Today, his kids like the Integra and Civic. I think the Mustang/Camaro appeal, but are seen as not practical (not enough $$, etc.).
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,123
From: Melbourne, Australia
Boy, definitely some sensationalist, propagandist views being bandied about for a car that is really doing nothing more than leading the sales segment it competes in. Not only that, but the car is commanding healthy margins for the dealers. Glass half empty... as usual. 
So how is this chatter relevant to the thread title, again? Yeah, well Alpha will be such a success that we'll just relegate the current 5G to also ran status.
CAFE\EPA is the least of concerns for muscle cars and their owners. Muscle cars do make up a very small portion of overall sales so EPA negative figures can be compensated by other products (EPA positive) in the range. And GM have some good small cars coming which should redress the Camaro's supposed imbalance in that regard. There's also the GenV with DI...
So how is this chatter relevant to the thread title, again? Yeah, well Alpha will be such a success that we'll just relegate the current 5G to also ran status.
CAFE\EPA is the least of concerns for muscle cars and their owners. Muscle cars do make up a very small portion of overall sales so EPA negative figures can be compensated by other products (EPA positive) in the range. And GM have some good small cars coming which should redress the Camaro's supposed imbalance in that regard. There's also the GenV with DI...
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,123
From: Melbourne, Australia
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 632
From: NC
That sounds like the argument against Camaro since 1967. You also mentioned that people 35 and under don't have $35K to spend on a car. Chevy also has a $22,680 Camaro available, as you know, which apparently people 35 and under aren't buying either.
In my personal opinion, the fact that 80% of sales have been to people 36 and over and only 20% of sales have been to women is kind of a big deal. If I were marketing this car, I'd be a fool not to raise an eyebrow at that.
In my personal opinion, the fact that 80% of sales have been to people 36 and over and only 20% of sales have been to women is kind of a big deal. If I were marketing this car, I'd be a fool not to raise an eyebrow at that.
Case in point: I had every plan in place to have an F5 SS sitting in my driveway this year. But when I graduated, I was unable (and still am unable) to find a "career" job. I'm 27 years old (your exact target)
I don't think GM needs to ignore this phenomenon, but I don't think it's as severe as some think.
As for the 22K V6 Camaro... It's not good enough for me. I want an honest-to-god appealing V6 package. Not a "grocery getter" with good power. I want appearance, street cred and the power to go with it. GM needs to start better targeting "run of the mill" V6 buyers better with packages, trims and whatnot IMO.
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 3,132
From: Santa Clara, CA
Thinking about this some more, I know some under 35s here at work who like the new Camaro (and don't like my 2002). They all drive used cars.
Seriously, I don't think the low percentage of sales mean it doesn't appeal. It just means that not many can afford a Camaro as a new car.
Check back in five years and see what the used market is like, and I'm sure the demographic picture will be much younger.
Seriously, I don't think the low percentage of sales mean it doesn't appeal. It just means that not many can afford a Camaro as a new car.
Check back in five years and see what the used market is like, and I'm sure the demographic picture will be much younger.
Registered User
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 3,132
From: Santa Clara, CA
As for the 22K V6 Camaro... It's not good enough for me. I want an honest-to-god appealing V6 package. Not a "grocery getter" with good power. I want appearance, street cred and the power to go with it. GM needs to start better targeting "run of the mill" V6 buyers better with packages, trims and whatnot IMO.
Packages and trims and whatnot cost money. Wouldn't that make it less affordable?
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,123
From: Melbourne, Australia
Interesting that GM has come out today and stated the Cadillac ATS will take on the 3-series BMW.
While it’s not clear what a production model would look like, the ATS concept boasted sheetmetal based on GM’s “Art & Science” design philosophy, which is showcased on the Cadillac Converj concept car displayed at the 2009 North American International Auto Show in Detroit.
In order to match the renown driving characteristics of the BMW 3-Series, Shannon says Cadillac “would put our best engineering effort into making this a light, nimble fun-to-drive” car. “Clearly the No.1 reason for purchase in that segment is it’s fun to drive,” he says.
http://wardsauto.com/home/cadillac_ats_3-series_100210/
In order to match the renown driving characteristics of the BMW 3-Series, Shannon says Cadillac “would put our best engineering effort into making this a light, nimble fun-to-drive” car. “Clearly the No.1 reason for purchase in that segment is it’s fun to drive,” he says.
http://wardsauto.com/home/cadillac_ats_3-series_100210/
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Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 3,463
From: SoCal
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Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,801
From: South Bend , IN
Why dont they just say THAT then
Why must they always refer to a 3 series , its really kinda tacky for a company striving to the standard of the world " to blantenly state the car they wanna be like in almost every statement made about the ATS . They do this with other models and other brands too , its just in bad taste .
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 16,176
From: Chicagoland IL
Why dont they just say THAT then Why must they always refer to a 3 series , its really kinda tacky for a company striving to the standard of the world " to blantenly state the car they wanna be like in almost every statement made about the ATS . They do this with other models and other brands too , its just in bad taste .
Why must they always refer to a 3 series , its really kinda tacky for a company striving to the standard of the world " to blantenly state the car they wanna be like in almost every statement made about the ATS . They do this with other models and other brands too , its just in bad taste .