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To anyone SERIOUS about high performance, weight is the NUMBER ONE consideration. Just ask the GT2 Porsche driver I PULLED AWAY FROM at Watkins Glen on Thursday (in the instructor group for the ZCar convention track day). He certainly wasn't lacking for power or braking, but I lost him in the curves. On a HIGH-SPEED TRACK.

Of course 99% of the population equates power with performance and don't care a whit about weight. Boy are they surprised when they get outrun at the track by a 6cyl N/A street DATSUN!

Anyway, I'm just pining for what GM *could* do. That is, build a landmark performance vehicle that looks great, sounds great, and could school Porsches at the track, for reasonable bucks. Lightweight is the way to do it.

If all you want is styling and yeehaw v8 noises (which I love too!), I'm sure the new Camaro won't disappoint (well, we'll see about the styling).
Just don't be surprised to find that the track performance is closer to Miata than Porsche. (not that you or 75% of Fbod owners would care)

Cobalt?! A fwd 3000 lb uglimobile? Why on earth would I be interested in something like that? No redeeming qualities whatsoever. Believe me a Cobalt is not even on my radar.

I still don't understand why you would think that a lightweight REAR WHEEL DRIVE Camaro would be the equivalent of a Cobalt

 

Because some people are not concerned about "Camaro" being a real Camaro. Some people just want "Camaro" to fullfill their modern day Chevelle or RWD Impala fantasies. I'll also bet that the overwhelming majority of "Camaro enthusiasts" who are unconcerned about size, weight and mass.....are not considering buying one of these cars new.....if at all.

 

It may not be as bad as you think, the latest poll has a Camaro being lighter than a Mustang at over 95%. I would think GM thinks the same thing.

 

And 80% in the other poll want Camaro smaller than Mustang. So what's the problem here? GM should just give us what we want.

 

LOL, that's more like 5% - if the car is what GM wants and need it to be. Believe me, more and more everyday I'm learning to appreciate handling over brute force, and would love the car as you describe. However, GM needs a strong seller, not just a cult icon. Never forget the fact that our passion is supported by girls in their late twenties who want a stylish, modeerately quick, but practical sporty coupe. GM, being a business, needs to make sure that the new Camaro pleases them more than they do us. They didn't with the 4th gen, and it was a mistake. The 4th gen ended it's production as the undisputed king of cheap speed, but it did end production.

I don't know that GM cannot make a car practical, cheap, and lightweight. I really don't know enough about the developement of cars to really know where the weight gets added on and why it does. I'm guessing that crash standards and modern conveyences, as well as insulation add quite a bit of weight. I'd also conjecture that a car for the price at which we want will not have Z06 style carbon fiber body peices and extensive use of aluminum. I myself would jump at the chance for a Camaro that forewent some of that insulation, along with electronic goodies in the name of light weight speed for a great price. I'm not sure though, if production realities would allow that to happen.

I think a lot of people here (including myself at times) talk about the Camaro as if it were some limited production sports car built by a specialty manufacturer, when instead it's a mass produced coupe being built by the largest car manufacturer in the world. I guess in summation I would remind everyone to keep in mind the girl in her late twenties, and remember that we need our car to please her if we want the car we all love to be here to stay.

 

Exactly.

And how is a large, heavy, base car going to attract these girls? It won't.

 

And some don't want to see it end up a sub-compact domestic tuner.(ie; Datsun etc...)
Some might, but others would like to see the Camaro just address those issues that made it almost unliveable with in the past.(I'd still love to see a modern Chevelle too, a larger 2-4 or quad door variant. )
I'd say it depends on what we're talking...50lbs...100lbs...or 500lbs....most will probably not "nit-pik" over a 100lbs or so...As I said before, if I wanted to road race one, I could find ways to lighten it up, but would'nt want to see the majority of people having to ride around in a sub-3000lb vehicle that rides like a "buck-board" on the street either.(...these are my opinions, I can in no way speak for a majority ofcourse..)
I'd wager that there will be more enthusiest lined up for the first 5th gen, than ever before. Especially if it effectively addressed those issues the "majority" could'nt live with in the past...especially "curb appeal"!.

 

OMG, I can tell you that there is ZERO chance of that happening!

But maybe there's a chance to make it ponycar sized.

 

Hmm....it would be interesting to see the number of these young girls who are buying the fat pig 2005 Mustang. Another interesting vehicle to look at would/will be the new Eclipse. What I'm trying to get at, is that I personally don't believe that your average 20 something girl (or the majority of buyers for that matter) are going to freak out if the car is 4 inches longer or two hundred pounds heavier than car "B". If the car can do everying it needs to do including looking good and providing excellent performance in a very competitive package at a good price, it will sell IMO.

Understandably weight is not beneficial to handling, but that doesn't have to doom a vehicle. Take for example the seemingly much maligned (at least by some) 4th gens versus the "perfect sized" SN95 Mustangs. The f-bodies routinely outhandle those Stangs. If a car is "too heavy" the onus must be placed on the engineers to overcome those obstacles and still provide a vehicle that can go through the twisties with ease. Personally with GM's latest offerings i.e. CTS-V, Cobalt SS, Grand Prix GXP, C6, etc I have faith that General Motors can provide a vehicle that is fun to drive in a situation other that just the drag strip.

Charlie, I can't help but respect your dedication and passion for Camaro, but I cringe every time you throw out the "Camaro enthusiast" card. Maybe it's just my interpretation, but it almost feels as if you downplay or even dismiss the desire of other members of this site for an excellent Camaro if they don't share the same vision of what the car is/should be that you do. I don't think it can really be said who is wrong or right. That being said, I'd be perfectly happy with a 188" long 3700lb Camaro if the styling fit the proportions, the car handled well (at the top of its class), it provided excellent performance, gave great build quality, and did it all at a competitive price. If that means that I'm not a "Camaro enthusiast", then so be it. Oh, and if GM comes through and makes a Camaro that is desirable to me, I'll buy.......new.


-Mike

 

To be frank, this is the LAST site I'd go go to get guidence for the 5th gen. Between the "engine in the box" guys, the "Camaro quicker than Vette" guys, the guys that want another impractically packaged car, one group that wants a 1969 styled 5th gen and another group that wants a evolutonary design of the all but failed 4th gen. To top it all off, the market (which is going to actually BUY the car) dictates that the Mustang is the right size and package, instead of smaller coupes (complete with market research as well as sales figures to back it up), but yet we are still slamming the Mustang as too big, and slamming the size of a car we haven't even seen yet?

This site is 2nd to none as far as future vehicle information, but this isn't exactly a site (collectively) that GM should be getting Camaro direction from.

Did you know about 70% of SUV sales go to "girls"?

If we are still talking about that "huge" Mustang, women are still about 40% of the buyers.

Just the same, if the 5th gen doesn't pull notable numbers of women buyers (which make up nearly 60% of the new car market now), it's not going to be very successful.

Extremely doubtful, & thinking that the next Camaro is the size of a Monte Carlo and Impala is absolutely and completely nuts.

We just want to make sure the next Camaro hits a bullseye in the sports coupe market to the degree Mustang has, and moves away from the oversized and underwhelming in the marketplace 4th gen.

I'm pretty convinced it will.

 

Z284Ever, I think you're the bees knees, but I doubt that you (exclusive of all other men) have a fix on what attracts the fickle taste of 20 something year old women. If you do, then you need to start PM'ing me with some pointers .

 

Sorry there Mike...my intent is to not come off as a Camaro snob. But I do have a very clear vision of what I (as in ME personally), think Camaro should be. Some people agree with me...some don't. I usually prefer to be agreeable and non-confrontational....but you know....when fervor runs high....it's hard not to defend your ground. Is that a bad thing? I don't know.

As far as a 3,700 lbs Camaro....no....that would NOT make me happy. But would a less than 3,700 lbs Camaro make you unhappy? So maybe what I would want, may actually not be objectionable to you?

 

Well, it's my understanding that this poll is currently making the rounds at GM. Hope it makes a difference. Actually I was abit shocked at how overwhelming the response was for a smaller than Mustang Camaro.....from this site...of all places. The last place I expected to see it.




I never said that. I meant that some people are not primarily Camaro enthusiasts....so perhaps they might want Camaro to evolve into something closer to their favorite car, ie Chevelle, etc. Some things have to go seriously wrong for Camaro to end up larger than a MC. But............................................... .......

The reality of a 5th gen being heavier than a fully equipped, full sized W-car is looming very large.

 

Sorry dude, my pointers are so powerfully effective, I cannot with a clear concience share them with anyone who hasn't gone through special training.

 

Um, does this thread still have anything to do about the GTO? Or did turn into another 5th gen thread? Anymore news on the new Goat, yet?

Thanks,

Eric