Interesting...


-Mike

 

-Mike

 

 

No offense, but you seem to be the theoretical question king of this message board . I didn't think my question differed greatly from many that have been posted as topics or polls in previous threads. I guess I'm just kind of surprized you were unwilling/unable to provide an answer.


-Mike

 

Regarding the Camaro, this site, in all brutal honesty, is pretty whacked. I've never seen a group (as a whole) so bent on ensuring that there's no 6th gen by making so certain that the 5th gen Camaro fails of any website I visit.

Also, compare this site to a typical Mustang site. There is some type of cohesiveness, and a willingness to compromise on things to keep Mustang alive. That doesn't exist here. This a great site for future vehicle info, but isn't a site I'd go to for ideas on the next Camaro.

Small Camaro? Proven it won't sell. Yet people are still selling this notion.
More power will make Camaro outsell Mustang? Didn't work for the 4th gen, but still being pushed here.

You can explain that IRS equals more weight or more expensive till the 2nd coming, but you aren't going to convince some people.

The budget coupe market is extremely unstable, and no one is going to produce a coupe unless there is a high production sedan to base it on to make it worth while. Yet, explaining that is like talking to a brick.

I can see why Red wants to douse himself with gasoline and light a match when he visits here sometimes........ hilarious line, BTW.



You'll get the whining & mock outrage, then everyone will fall in line and talk about how great the car is as if they never doubted it. Just like what happened to the '69 GTO.

Dave Hill works on a car that's going to retail for $45,000 starting price.

Camaro has to make a profit selling at $20,000 opening bid.... less than HALF the price.

Corvette is priced at a point where it can have it's own chassis.

Camaro isn't. It has to share chassis with a high volume car (nowadays, that means a low cost sedan).

Comparing the Corvette to the Camaro is like comparing a tenderloin cut used to make Fillet Mingon to the ground chuck used in a Burger King Hamburger.

Sure both may come from the same farm & even the same cow, but go into the local Ruth's and demand to pay $2.69 for their top steak, and you're going to get tossed out on your can.

 

Its because we have soo many who regularly post who have their numbers but dont have the perspective of reality. And choose to ignore it.

 

I gave the best answer I could. But I suspect that's not what you were fishing for.

 

I disagree. This site rocks! When it comes to discussing Camaro, certainly the best one I've been to. Lots of smart and interesting people. Maybe afew cement heads too...but I can think of at least 2 dozen people off the top of my head who's opinion I really respect here. Whether I agree with them or not. That's saying something!

Sounds like you're making the case for the '05 V6 Mustang.....




What a very easy copout Guy. I'm surprised at you. From my understanding making C6 smaller and lighter than C5 didn't cost much, if anything . It just required a team leader with laser beam focus to make it happen.

Ok, Camaro will share it's platform with a sedan....that's true. But that doesn't have to mean wholesale compromise. With the shelving of Zeta, a rare opportunity exists to get things right. The "Chevy ponycar" isn't tied to any large, heavy, Pontiac or Buick coupes/convertibles this time around. Of course it can be done right...we just need an ***-kicking ,Camaro version, of a Dave Hill in charge.

 

I haven't been on this site that long, but I'd guess that the general state discord and the slight edge in this forum stems almost entirely from the loss of the 4th gen. Mustang owners have never really had to sacrifice anything. They've had some close calls, but have always ended up with what they wanted. They are the Yankee fans of the coupe market. On that note, this forum sometimes reminds me very much of Red Sox talk radio, especially prior to their world series win.

I think that a lot of people here are still pretty pissed about losing the Camaro, and think that GM at the very least owes them the car of their dreams as a way of making things right. The Mustang may not be perfect, but it's here now, not here in three years.

It's also worth noting that the Corvette has a very different mission than the Camaro. If the Camaro were just a cheaper Corvette, it would never have been made. The Vette is a pure sports car with some attention paid to grand touring concerns. The Camaro is a pony car, emphasis on car. Besides being cheaper, it needs to be far more versatile, must appeal to far more people, and be a ton more practical. I wonder if anyone within GM or elsewhere has conducted a survey to compare how people use Camaro's as compared to Corvettes. Based on my highly unscientific study of one person, that person being my father, I'd say that the Camaro is much more likely to be driven in snow and rain, much more likely to be used to carry real things in the trunk (ie - not golf clubs), and a lot more likely to be used on a daily basis. This was not only a a result of the differences in the cars themselves, but also a result of the difference in the owner. When we owned our Camaro, we only had one other car - a big sedan that my mom drove. By the time the Vette came around, it was the third car, basically a toy, and was not in our driveway for very long. The Camaro cannot be a toy simply because most people looking for that sort of coupe aren't in a position to have a car just for leisure.

 

AMEN to all that.

 

When has a small Camaro proven it wont sell? Maybe the 1st gens? They sold pretty well. I understand where you are coming from completely, that the car has to appeal to the masses. The Camaro (or Firebird) has been the enthusiasts choice more often than not as of late though over the Mustang, and even though the Camaro must sell more volume through style or whatever to keep it going, I do think its performance must be better than the Mustangs, or many potential buyers could very well be lost. That may not be the way things have always been, but it was the way it was in the most recent years of the Camaro, and to give the Mustang any competitive edge would be foolishness to me. I think z284ever's intentions are very good, a car that is stylish and can appease the the everyday person, but is also a smaller, lighter, better handling, faster competitor to the Mustang for the enthusiasts to get a kick out of as well. If people only listened to market research and nothing more, would the LX cars be out? They seem to be paying dividends for Chrysler, through sales and image.

 

When and where has it been proven that a smallER Camaro won't sell? I hear what you've been saying about the new Mustang being the "proper size"...ok fine it has proven it will sell well, but does it sell well because of its size or in spite of it? To be frank, the Mustang has no direct competition now, so even those pony car enthusiasts who would prefer a tighter package and a better suspension have no alternative. No one is advocating a Miata-sized Camaro!!! But it's important (IMHO) to understand that there is a real opportunity to package a pony car better than Ford has, with less chunky characteristics...heck there's an opportunity to make a better pony car, period, and Chevy must do that...but again we ain't talking about a car that's 170 inches long here....

 

 

Yet somehow, GM, knowing that it would be cheaper and much more desirable to design a lightweight Camaro decides not to do it...

 

Let me just say this one more thing. I love my SS. I think it handles great, goes like stink and is comfortable (enough) for me. I don't really mind the sheer "bigness" of its outer packaging because I know the car has its roots in the "bigger car" days of the early 80's. But I can say this...I probably wouldn't buy a 190" long Camaro again. To me, a pony car that is truly done right can have the same interior dimensions the current Mustang has without having to resemble the sedan it is based off of. Line the Lincoln LS up right next to the '05 Mustang and I can see the similarities. Am I the only one?

I fully realize the next Camaro will be based to some degree on some future RWD sedan. I understand and agree with the reasons behind it. However I don't agree that just because a pony car is loosely based on a sedan that it has to look and feel big just like that sedan. Now maybe that's where styling comes into play as RP has mentioned, and I'll buy that to a certain extent. However, hiding roughly 16 feet with some slick sheetmetal is too tough a task.