Who you calling a ricer? its not a ricer, its a modern car, the year is 2003 in case you were stuck in a timewarp.

YOU TELL ME IF UDE feel different if you smashed up this- http://www.reberger.com/monaro/images/hq_web.jpg

http://www.reberger.com/monaro/image..._mounted_4.jpg

 

I always thought that looked like a batmobile reject TBH ...

 

I know looks are a subjective thing.....but I personally thought the '99 GTO concept was ghastly.

It's designer said in an interview: "Believe it or not, I didn't even know what a GTO was until I started this project"

I believed him.

 

I guess it's OK to make a GTO look like a standard issue mid size car with hood scoops (which all GTOs were till the 1974 Ventura)?

You may not be aware of this, but early GTO owners had the same thing to say when your 1969 GTO Judge came out as well:

1. It didn't "look" like a GTO (it was decried as "soft" by GTO enthusiasts).
2. The cartoonish "Judge" script in particular got an initially strong razzing by so-called GTO purists at the time.

So far every GTO enthusiast who has actually previewed & driven the new GTO has come away someplace between blown away and very impressed. So whining that the new GTO doesn't look like some throwback to the 1960s seems pretty shallow in all this.

The new 2004 GTO is THE quickest & fastest car to ever wear the GTO name. If you don't think GM will get the car right, then your problem is with GM, not the car itself. I suspect that no matter what GM did as a GTO, you would still have a gripe about it if it didn't look like a 1960s Lemans or Tempest.

Personally, if I wanted a 1965 (or 1969) GTO, I'd simply go out and buy one.

Complaining that the GTO doesn't look like a GTO is like decrying Cadillac isn't a Cadillac because it doesn't have tailfins? I think we should actually see what people who actually have driven the new GTO has to say about it.

That 99 GTO concept was absolutlely horrid. And you are right, the guy who designed it admitted he knew nothing about GTOs. At least Holden had alot of imput from previous GTOs and many key people before the created the new GTO.

Pretty ironic how things happen, and create the opposite effect with some people.

 

Back in 1967, my grandfather rushed out to get his 67 GTO when he saw how the new ones were to look for 1968. He was one of the last customers to order a 1967 model.

All of the debate this car (the new GTO) has caused proves one thing: when dealing with a legendary name like this, you cannot please everyone.

 

Ok guionM Point taken.
I will concede that maybe that my problem is more with GM than the car. But we have a rather large GTO club here in New Orleans and I have spoken to many about this subject. And several of these guys have talked to the guys in Houston they are all active in the forums. Several polls taken by these guys all support what I said about the car. And asking around I did not find anyone that was asked their opinion or knew of anyone that was consulted about the design of this car and one of the guys is a GM engineer from the 60's and 70's. This is because the car was already built so the only imput that came from the past was a ride by the GM engineers in a 64 to get a better exhaust sound. Also we have 2 peeps that drove the GTO and yes they said it was fast and sounded good. They also said that it had a few rattles at 13,020 miles and the Interior was cheap looking and feeling. They said that the steering which has always been a big pontiac trait wasn't great. Not as good as one of the guys 2002 firebird.

But more than anything I guess that has made most of the peeps upset is the arrogance of BOB LUTZ.
BOB LUTZ Qoute ( We did not make this car retro because we are triing to market it to a younger crowd).

So much for 50 years of customer loyalty MR. PUTZ killed it all in one statment.

As far as most of us old timers are concerned a dual snorkel functional hood scoop like the firebird has and a hood tach would have us all on board.
And it would be nice if an AMERICAN LEGEND was built here in AMERICA.
But PUTZ LUTZ wouldn't even concede that. Also If some of you will remember the last car that was imported to the US from the Holden division it was a peice of junk. So lets hold our opinions and wait and see if it will last more than 36,000 miles.

And after several scathing forum remarks by some of the older GTO members MR LUTZ gets on the forum site and tries to defend his actions and words. Bottom Line most of us know that very few 18-22 year olds can afford a 35,000 dollar car. So Mr Lutz's words dont hold water.
And one of the comments made by a GTO owner here in New Orleans last night really hits hard ( He said and I Quote !!!! I am not really a mustang fan but if you think that you cant do retro and new all at the same time take a look at the new MACH I mustang, Ford HIT IT RIGHT OUT OF THE PARK. And for 29,000 a full 6,000 less than what the new GTO is going to cost).

GM still has a problem understanding somethings.
1. They have to make a commitment to the car and their customers. All everyone to date talks about is how fast it is. Fast is great but look at the corvette only a few can afford it and that leads me to the second point.
2. It has to be affordable. Look at the Firebird and Camaro They are probably two of the finest cars ever built but they aren't here anymore because the price is out of most of the populations reach.
3. They need to understand who and what there competition is and look at what they have done to make things work. (See ProudPony remarks in one of the other forum segments about how ford has committed to their costumers with the mustang.
4. They need to stuff something in PUTZ LUTZ's mouth to keep him from pissing anymore old time GTO owners off.
5. It needs to last longer than 36,000 miles before it falls apart.
6. It needs to be built here in AMERICA to a lot of us old timers it really is hard to go and buy a car that puts Americans out of work. With GM laying off here in the US and shutting plants down regularly this bothers a lot of people that we are going to import a car that helps another country's economy not ours.

 

Timebandit, you keep referring to yourself as an "old timer" but with the immature grammar and thoughts you're laying out here it's hard for me to believe that....

Let me welcome you to the 5th Gen forum but I would ask you to keep in mind this is one of the coolest forums on the net for honest, no-holds barred yet civil and flame-free discussion.

On to your thoughts. I'm not sure which people you know have driven the new GTO (Monaro) here, but I'm wondering about the car having 13,000 miles on it already? I guess if they've already done some extensive endurance testing it's possible.

How can the interior be "cheap looking and feeling" compared to a 2002 Trans Am? All indications are that this will be the best interior in GM NA's stable...the pictures I've seen confirm it for me. Granted I have not sat in it yet, I'm looking forward to the chance.

GTO seems like a good deal for what you're getting. Remember that the original GTO, which you're always quick to reference, was one of the most expensive muscle cars of the day. GTO was never necessarily about cheap performance. There were plenty of other cars you could get from GM or another company that would rival a GTO in performance, at less of a price. At just over $30,000, I would say today's car falls very much in line with that history. Add the fact that THERE ARE NO other offerings right now for this type of car besides Mustang and the price gets even more reasonable.

GM is already working on the car for GTO "purists". Hood scoops are coming in 2005. It has been confirmed that the LS6/new LS7 will eventually be an option. A complete redesign with production here is coming in a few short years. The Monaro GTO is, in the true sense of the word, a stopgap to fill a self-admittingly large void in GM's lineup. I can't fault them for this!

For every GTO "purist" who hates this car, there will be one who loves it. There will be 18,000 very happy GTO owners next year.

 

hood scoops next year.

3 years and your wish will come true.

erm, capri ? that was from Ford

It is aimed at 40 year old+ people who remember the old GTO and have enough money to afford this car. 18-22yo would be the target of cars like the honda civic which are cheap. Never seen anything about GTO aimed at 18-22yo people.


you want cheap power, everyone wants cheap power!! cheap power = low profit per car = very unattractive the car makers = they wont make it. Hopefully the VE/sigma platform may make it more appealing to make a car with plenty of power. They is alot that needs to be considered with cheap power like;

-gov. bithcing about fast cars in young hands
-insurance
-emmisions, (cheap power would make it harder to stay under the emmision regs due to high volume of cheap cars)

Thats just stupid, plenty of aussies on here know people with the holden equv. car. They should be the ones to ask BEFORE you even think about saying something like that.

America has managed to help employ about 1000 (i think) more people at Holden, but Holden hasn't kicked anyone out of employment. Maybe you would have liked the GTO to be a FWD POS, just to keep Americans in employment. In a few years Holden maybe employing Americans, MANY more than are being employed in australia for this one car. You have to remember that things don't happen overnight like you want it to. If Holden or GM wanted to start a RWD factory now it would need to get the factory setup, but also have enough cars to build in that factory that it would be economical. That wont happen for a few years so you will have to live with the car coming from Australia for now.

 

Just a few points I'd like you to consider, OK?

1. Bob Lutz had the guts to come to a GTO site that had alot of members who were being very immature (I saw some of the things that were written, and it earned it's own thread here awhile back) and defended his point and vision of the GTO very well. What he posted on that site is nothing compared to what alot of people posted. If you or I were him, I think we would have either blown off everyone there, or been way more hostile. And we would have been justified.

2. Everyone who is a GTO representative who has driven the car, and written about it has praised it. Maybe there are a few diehards who want to go back 35 or 40 years, but is that actually realistic in 2004? Also, I have personally driven the Holden Monaro CV6, and rode along in a friend's CV8 last year when I went to Melborne. Let me tell you honestly, whoever said those cars interior are cheap DID NOT sit in this car, or else his opinion shouldn't be completely trusted. They are not Mercedes Benz quality mind you, but I'd throw it in with Volkswagen and maybe Audi or Volvo, but it is most certainly years ahead anything GM North America has screwed together (outside of perhaps CTS) in memory.

3. Dual Snorkel intakes are simply not comming back in the age of Fuel Injected engines, and modern underhood packaging. As far as functional hood scoops, even GTO's own engineers admit the GTOs hood scoops were useless because of their placement (The leading edge of the hood or the base of the windshield would have produced a true ram air effect because those were the true high pressure areas. So, while Trans Am and Formula Firebird type hood scoops were truely functional, GTO's middle-of-the-hood scoops were not. So GTO's scoops were a matter of cosmetics (the new Mach1's hood scoop has a near zero affect on engine output, it's all decoration).

4. Finally, GTO in it's quicker models WAS EXPENSIVE!! GTO was traditiona;lly the most expensive muscle car, and adding some of the higher performance engines and packages nearly doubled the price of a base GTO! Imagine a Grand Am GT with an engine package that sent it to $40,000 and you'd get the point. Alot of the retoric from many (not most) GTO enthusiast are based on assumptions and memories more than 30 years old, which if looked into doesn't hold up. Most complaints it seems about the new GTO is based on emotion far more than facts.

(True Story: The GTO Judge was Pontiac's effort to get into the "affordable" musclecar market started by Plymouth's Road Runner, but in the end, also ended up much costlier then pretty much all other entries, especially Plymouth & Chevrolet. Yet, it's wrongly assumed the Judge was the ultimate high performance GTO, despite the fact the same engines were avalible on the base GTO).

In the end, GM has to actually sell these cars to the public & meet government regulations. They have already made a commitment to sell these cars for the rest of the decade, and are already working on it's replacement. In every sense of the word (save hood scoops) it's dead on as a today's GTO. A standard looking Pontiac with a big engine, alot of performance, and a good deal of luxury thrown in, just as the 1960s versions had. But it takes today's requirements & realities and incorperates them into the package.

It's not going to appeal to everyone (as the 1968 GTO and the 1969 GTO Judge didn't). But in a few years, alot of the things said will likely seem ridiculous.

Sometimes you gotta separate the useless chatter from true constructive input. GTO will be getting a hood scoop next year courtesy of constructive input, while those who want a 1964 GTO lookalike, want to go back to carbs, or have a distorted view of what GTO actually was in the 1960s are being ignored (rightfully so). Perhaps the 2007 GTO may have a nod to the past via a line here, or a taillight there, but the forward direction of the resurrected GTO is going to guarantee it's future instead of Retro design's tendancy of selling well for a couple of years, then dying once collectors get theirs.

Personally, I applaude Bob Lutz for finally bringing out a GM car I would actually buy besides my extinct Camaro. Being that most of the new GTO came from the US (engine, drivetrain, and most components) and there isn't a chassis here in the US (or currently, a plant )where it can be made profitably, I'd have to say it was a great idea bringing this car in.

Short of leaving the GTO dead, and having nothing to sell for the next 3 years for enthusiasts, or bringing it back as a FWD Grand Am (an idea that came close to production in the late 90s), what would you have done to bring it back profitably?

 

1. I did not mean to infer that the car would fall apart in 36,000 miles. But a lot of changes are being made to the car in a very short time frame to get it into the american market we need to wait and see what bugs it has.
2. Maybe they should have called the first version a Lemans and offer a GTO package next year when the hood scoops go on. I think this would have caused much less controversy.
3. My source that drove the car works at a transmission research facility for GM. They were given one to test. He stated that the car when it arrived had 13,000 plus miles on it. He also stated that it had cheap cloth interior not leather like you would have thought. He stated the car came with the standard monaro suspension. He said it was soft and did not perform as well as his 2002 f body. He also stated that in several 1/4 mile passes launching at 2800rpms they broke both drive shafts between the third member and the drive wheels.
4. My second source got a chance to drive one at a show in detroit. He was also told by a design team engineer that the INVOICE PRICING NOT RETAIL would end up around 35k to 37k and with the vette being at 38k and the MACH I at 29k which one would you buy.
5. I agree that some of the peeps in the forum where Mr Lutz replied were simply childish to say the least. And it took guts for him to go there and respond. However he is the one that made the statement that the car would not be retro due to the fact that it was being marketed towards a younger buyer. Maybe his younger buyers are in their 40's I don't know.
6. If Ford can build a MACH I mustang and keep it under 29,000 why can't GM. And I do realize that GM will probably say that the competition is the M3 or something along those lines. But if you don't think that the Mustang is going to be the competition for the GTO then your kidding yourself.
7. Gm cant get people to buy a firebird or camaro at 25k to 30k hense the reason they aren't being made anymore, what makes the GTO any better or worse than the f-bodys. Is the Quality of the GTO worth another 10,000 dollars????????
8. Dont depend on Gm developing a facility here in the US. My source at the transmission research facility stated that he was told the idea was bounced around but because of the higher labor costs here it probably wasn't going to happen unless the demand overwhelmed their production capabilities. And by keeping production low it would assure GM of high profits.
9. My way of making it and making it profitable would be to get the sigma design team off dead center. They have been working on the platform for nearly 8 years now. The reason it has taken so long is it was supposed to be for the caddy and they weren't in any hurry. It wasn't until the demise of the F-body that they are now being pushed to finish it. A huge part of GM's problem is that each division doesn't seem to know what the other is doing.

 

The changes that were made are all relatively minor. A new front fascia, relocation of the gas tank and a conversion to left-hand drive are the major changes that I know of. Keep in mind that Holden has been building left-drive versions of their cars for the Middle East for years.

Quote:

2. Maybe they should have called the first version a Lemans and offer a GTO package next year when the hood scoops go on. I think this would have caused much less controversy.

Would it? And if the intent is to bring back a hollowed nameplate to insure sales why waste time and money launching the "sub" name Lemans/Tempest again?

Quote:

3. My source that drove the car works at a transmission research facility for GM. They were given one to test. He stated that the car when it arrived had 13,000 plus miles on it. He also stated that it had cheap cloth interior not leather like you would have thought. He stated the car came with the standard monaro suspension. He said it was soft and did not perform as well as his 2002 f body. He also stated that in several 1/4 mile passes launching at 2800rpms they broke both drive shafts between the third member and the drive wheels.

I would seriously have to question this source. The GTOs will come with leather as standard equipment, so why they would have a cloth tester is beyond me. Drag racing can be hell on a car, and some things can break after repeated abuse. Whether this story is true or not is pure speculation on anyone's part, but if it has happened I fully expect that Pontiac would find and fix the problem before the official launch.

Quote:

4. My second source got a chance to drive one at a show in detroit. He was also told by a design team engineer that the INVOICE PRICING NOT RETAIL would end up around 35k to 37k and with the vette being at 38k and the MACH I at 29k which one would you buy.

I can't find the thread right now but it has already been announced by Bob Kraut (Brand Manager for Grand Prix and GTO) that pricing will start around $33 or $34k. Now, I'm not sure where you are buying 2003 Corvettes for $38,000....and I would compare the GTO more with the Cobra, also over $30,000 well equipped....

Quote:

5. I agree that some of the peeps in the forum where Mr Lutz replied were simply childish to say the least. And it took guts for him to go there and respond. However he is the one that made the statement that the car would not be retro due to the fact that it was being marketed towards a younger buyer. Maybe his younger buyers are in their 40's I don't know.

As was stated, the problem when you do a retro car is that once you get all the old-timers cleared out who buy the car because "oh, it looks just like my '67 GTO" what's left? The younger guys who have money to buy the car may not identify with the original. This is why I'm still a little skeptical of the '05 Mustang. I want to see if that heavily-influenced-by-the-'67 design holds up after a few years.

Quote:

6. If Ford can build a MACH I mustang and keep it under 29,000 why can't GM.

1) The Mach 1 is not being imported.
2) The Mach 1 has many of its parts based on those from the late 70's. It takes an existing drivetrain and puts some unique touches on an existing North American car.

Quote:

7. Gm cant get people to buy a firebird or camaro at 25k to 30k hense the reason they aren't being made anymore, what makes the GTO any better or worse than the f-bodys. Is the Quality of the GTO worth another 10,000 dollars????????

You said it, what makes it worse? If you really are getting a better interior, better build quality, and a more powerful LS1 then it probably is worth the money, especially if you want to compare it to a similar-priced WS6 (by far the best selling of the Firebirds BTW!)

Quote:

8. Dont depend on Gm developing a facility here in the US. My source at the transmission research facility stated that he was told the idea was bounced around but because of the higher labor costs here it probably wasn't going to happen unless the demand overwhelmed their production capabilities. And by keeping production low it would assure GM of high profits.

Why would someone in the know at GM let an independent "research facility" in on a corporate secret such as this? This is how people lose jobs.

Quote:

9. My way of making it and making it profitable would be to get the sigma design team off dead center. They have been working on the platform for nearly 8 years now. The reason it has taken so long is it was supposed to be for the caddy and they weren't in any hurry. It wasn't until the demise of the F-body that they are now being pushed to finish it.

Better check your sources again. Sigma has nothing to do with Monaro/GTO. Not now, and not in the future. Sigma seems to be reserved for Cadillac's exclusive use. VE seems to be where it's at for future mass-produced RWD vehicles at GM.

 

So what if the scoops aren't functional, it makes the cars look better. You know how many musclecars over the years (basically all!!) or even our Camaros and Firebirds had non-functional hoods that looked it?? It's a part of the image. EFI kinda made it difficult, I don't think there was a functional Camaro hood from 85-95. (84 and before having functional induction flaps for the 4BBL and 96-on with the SS hood) As long as they were there it would have been cool. They could've announced that they'd be functional in 05, but at least the look would still be there for 04.

 

Yea and i'm sure Ferrari said the same thing when Pontiac lifted the name in the 60's. What do you call a 1973 and 74 GTO then???

 

Z28 wilson pretty much summed up everything I would say, but there are a couple of points I want to reinterate:

I really question your source because he gave you quite a few items that are so off base I wonder if he knew what he was talking about at all.

He simply didn't drive a "standard" Monaro suspension because there really isn't a "standard" Monaro suspension. The shock & spring rates are tuned for the CV6 (a supercharged V6 engine from Buick) but it has the same handling capability as the CV8. Also, as was pointed out GTO has standard leather seats. If he had a car with a cloth interior, it was likely a high mileage, heavily used test car, and he should know this if he works in a "test" facility.

Safe to also either call on his claim on breaking both driveshafts on "several" 2800 RPM launches, or else someone somehow bolted on halfshafts that belonged on a Hunydai. At any rate, this claim alone, if this source actually did say this and it isn't made up, makes him loose all credibility with me, and likely with alot of other people here as well.

Now I'm sure this research facility guy has a direct connection with what's happening in upper GM management, but I really think he should start reading GM's own press releases which state that not only is GM building a new plant to supply engines & transmissions for a new rear drive full size and performance chassis that's due to start 2007, or perhaps Bob Lutz's very own statements on the next GTO for 2007. Either this source is nonexistant, can't read, or is just yanking your chain....really, really hard.

As far as the Mach1 and it's price, I'll tell you I think the Mach1 Mustang is fantastic. What Ford did with that package is great, and you can put me down as a fan. But for $29,000 you get a 35 year old chassis that's had only one major structual revision ('94), and interior quality that dates back at least 10 years! For the extra $4,000 for the GTO, you get a fantastic IRS, a very solid, comparatively modern body structure, a top drawer interior (just wait till you compare GTO's interior to the Cobra's ) and perhaps way too much equptment for the type of car GTO/Monaro is supposed to be. Would I buy a Mach1 Mustang? Yes! Is GTO at $33,000 a better buy for the price? Most certainly.

As far as one GM division not knowing what the other is doing, that's really funny since Bob Lutz coordinates GM's products, General Motors Planning Board approves all vehicles made at the company. Meanwhile, Cadillac has has exclusive use of the Sigma chassis (it is currently under the CTS which has been out for a couple of years, the Sigma based STS will be out sometime next year, and by all indications the DTS will be out a couple of years after that, so I don't know how you can say it's "design team" has been sitting on Sigma for 8 years). The demise of the F-body has had zero effect on anyone being pushed to finish a chassis that's been on the market for 2 years safe to say.

 

I would like to know as well what this mystery Holden that was imported into the US?

Unless you think Ford & GM are the same thing??