And that is a honest personal opinion!

Simple & to the point. Not alot of false mumbo jumbo, fake poll numbers, wrong statements, or half cocked views.

Sorry, I got on a roll.

 

well, in the pictures that i've seen of the gto... its just not fitting my taste. very plain and resembles a family car. the mustang however, looks like its back to being a manly car.

i'd rather look like a dyke in a mustang than a soccer mom.

 

GuionM
It’s ok if you want to call me a liar and accuse my polls of being fake. I admitted earlier that our polls at our GTO forum maybe slightly higher. But every poll I have seen has been overwhelmingly against the looks of the new GTO. You can believe what ever you want that is up to you. If you want you can always do your own poll and ask people here if they like its looks and do they think it should be called GTO. But you won’t because someone already did a poll and most said it looked like a cavalier or grand prix or Monaro. I would also love to see you go buy a new GTO, kind of put your money where your mouth is concept
I say and I repeat I do not dislike the car I just think it was rushed based on Bob Lutz’s promise to his stock holders. And if it were called Monaro no one would have a problem with it and Lutz would probably be a Hero. In its current form I don’t think it deserves the GTO namesake. Tell me what rule says it has to look plain just because the 64 GTO did. It truly is a shame with today’s technology, post pone the debut for 6 months and do a few minor modifications to the looks and it would have looked the part too.
Of course if we all believed your opinion we should get down on our knees and kiss Lutz’s butt just for bringing an ls1 powered rear wheel drive vehicle to market. And we shouldn’t care that it looks like a cavalier or that its over priced. I know that people have made a lot of excuses as to why it looks that way blaming it on the wind tunnel etc. But take a look at the corvette and some of they other new cars coming out. A car doesn’t have to look like an arrow to still be aero efficient.
And according to you we also shouldn’t care what those guys think that bought the original GTO even though it was more expensive than the other available GM cars, Lobbied Pontiac to stay in nascar when it wanted to get out, turned the GTO in to The Great One, Even bought the POS front wheel drive cars that we have to day for their children and family because they are loyal to Pontiac. Talked their sons into buying F-bodies like I did my son, and a number of other things that help keep Pontiac from dying like Oldsmobile. (You need to remember this thread 10 years from now when Pontiac comes out with a replacement for the 4th gen f-body that looks like a cavalier or neon. And it will be a legend by then, it is almost so now. I don’t think that you will have the same kick the old in teeth they don’t matter attitude that you have now).
Also dealers for the PT sent feedback to Lutz for over 3 years before he even acknowledged the fact that they may need to look at putting a bigger engine in the PT or building a 2-door version. This is what is meant by slow to change.

Ás far as the cost for a corvette I will give you a step by step procedure

Go to www.kbb.com this stands for Kelly Blue Book if you don’t already know.
New car pricing
Put in a Houston zip code (Any Zip will do it only changes the price by a few dollars due to destination charges).
Sport cars
Chevrolet
Corvette
Invoice cost is 39,072 dollars
Incentive rebate is 2,000
At least 2 dealers here in the Houston area will sell you a car at Invoice minus the rebate. And they are the first 2 that I called and one had 3 base models in stock. The other had 1. Both dealers stated that aren’t even getting MSRP for the Z06
I believe that comes to 37,072 plus TT and L

Thanks BZ

 

Looks are subjective. If you don't like it, that's OK, say it. I like it, and many other people here and at other sites do. Each poll you bring up one way, I can likely bring up one favoring the other. Again, styling is subjective.

Quote:

I would also love to see you go buy a new GTO, kind of put your money where your mouth is concept

You are a little new here, so I won't hold against you the fact that I have many times mentioned that is exactly my intention.

Quote:

I say and I repeat I do not dislike the car I just think it was rushed based on Bob Lutz’s promise to his stock holders.

Really? When & where can I find the fact that Bob Lutz made a specfic promise to stockholders that he was going to bring Monaro over over from Australia & sell it as GTO.

Seriously though, Holden was given a mandate and a budget from GM/NA to certify it for the US, graft on a Pontiac nose, and get it done in 14 months. In that way, you can say yes, it was rushed. But Pontiac desparately wanted this car, and GM-Holden had been trying for a decade to get GM-NA to import one of their cars. They both convinced Lutz, who sent it upstairs where Pontiac made their case, & the rest is history.... or future, depending on your viewpoint.

Quote:

In its current form I don’t think it deserves the GTO namesake. Tell me what rule says it has to look plain just because the 64 GTO did. It truly is a shame with today’s technology, post pone the debut for 6 months and do a few minor modifications to the looks and it would have looked the part too.

You stated an honest opinion in saying why you don't believe the new GTO deserves it's nameplate, and I completely respect your opinion there. I'll just bring up the point that all GTOs except for the "Judge" and the Tempest based 1974 edition (both are versions that GTO purists hated when they came out) were relitively plain, save taillights & hoodscoop, and the occasional optional hood tach.

Quote:

Of course if we all believed your opinion we should get down on our knees and kiss Lutz’s butt just for bringing an ls1 powered rear wheel drive vehicle to market. And we shouldn’t care that it looks like a cavalier or that its over priced. I know that people have made a lot of excuses as to why it looks that way blaming it on the wind tunnel etc.

I don't recall telling anyone to kiss anyone's butt, but if someone chooses to do it, more power to them. I'm not about to debate that it resembles a Cavalier in profile just like I'm not going to debate the original GTOs were big engined economy cars (Tempest) of their day. However, you are aware that GTO's of the 1960s were even more overpriced, aren't you? You are also aware GTO was the most expensive muscle car on the market after 1967, yes? The new one is very very reasonable at $33,000 being that Cobra's are going for a little more than that, and GTO is light years better. In many ways, it's even a better deal than the $33,000 WS6 Trans Am was.

Quote:

And according to you we also shouldn’t care what those guys think that bought the original GTO even though it was more expensive than the other available GM cars, Lobbied Pontiac to stay in nascar when it wanted to get out, turned the GTO in to The Great One, Even bought the POS front wheel drive cars that we have to day for their children and family because they are loyal to Pontiac.

If anyone bought a car (with their own hard earned money) that they knew was a POS before bought, isn't the 1st person I'd see someone going to for advice on a car to buy, to be honest with you. Pontiac and GM did care what the GTO guys thought. The GTO guys had GM's ear, and the guys that had constructive things to say were heard out (hood scoops, pipes out of both sides of the rear, and tail lights are all on the plate for 2005, along with even more power). What wasn't done was that GM didn't run off with their tail between their legs. GM decided to separate the whiners from the guys that had something to say.

Quote:

Also dealers for the PT sent feedback to Lutz for over 3 years before he even acknowledged the fact that they may need to look at putting a bigger engine in the PT or building a 2-door version. This is what is meant by slow to change.

Well, I really hate to tell you this, but Bob Lutz left Chrysler in 1998, and the PT Crusier began production at the start of the 2000 model year!

PT debuted at Detroit's International Auto Show in January 1999 (post-Lutz), and was brought to market quickly by the changes at Chrysler's product development instituted by Bob Lutz. Tom Gale & Trevor Creed are the ones who actually chaperoned the PT Cruser through production. Also, after 1998, Chrysler merged with Mercedes Benz, and by the year 2000, the german arm of Daimler Chrysler was firmly in control of Chrysler, and began slashing programs and raiding Chrysler's built up surplus cash. Any attemps to get new product & programs had to go through Germany 1st, and they weren't giving Chrysler anything that wasn't already at production (ie: the 2000 PT Cruiser). By that time, Bob Lutz (and alot of Chrysler execs) were long gone.

So.... if the dealers were going to Bob Lutz to get him to make a 2 door PT Cruiser, this probally explains why a 2 door PT never came. (BTW: This so-called push for a 2 door PT or a bigger PT engine didn't happen... till a year ago, dealers were selling every single PT they got... but I figured I'd humor you anyway).

Quote:

Ás far as the cost for a corvette I will give you a step by step procedure

Go to www.kbb.com this stands for Kelly Blue Book if you don’t already know.
New car pricing
Put in a Houston zip code (Any Zip will do it only changes the price by a few dollars due to destination charges).
Sport cars
Chevrolet
Corvette
Invoice cost is 39,072 dollars
Incentive rebate is 2,000
At least 2 dealers here in the Houston area will sell you a car at Invoice minus the rebate. And they are the first 2 that I called and one had 3 base models in stock. The other had 1. Both dealers stated that aren’t even getting MSRP for the Z06
I believe that comes to 37,072 plus TT and L

Thanks BZ

Finally, correct me if I'm wrong (and I'm sure our resident car dealers here will step in to correct me if I'm wrong), but isn't invoice what dealers actually pay the manufacturer to get a car? If that's the case, then selling the car under invoice means they are loosing money on each car, which is only done if they are getting reimbursed by the manufacturer via some program designed to move slow models or help get the CAFE numbers up a bit, which neither's the case with the Corvette.

None the less, we are talking MSRP prices here. Corvettes start around $44,000 (perhaps you live in one of those few area in the country where Corvettes aren't selling) GTOs will be starting around $33,000. If GTOs stack up the way you seem to indicate Corvettes are stacking up in Houston, then that means I'll be getting mine for alot less than I expect!

 

People still seem to be totally missing the "GTO concept". They clamor for tradition and representing what the original GTO stood for, yet what they actually want is a totally different enchilada altogether.

If you want a Pontiac "Mustang GT", then say so. If you want a car that is flashy and stands out, that's your decision. However, don't go belly-aching because the new GTO doesn't fit this criteria. You're right it doesn't. It looks like a traditional everday no frills sedan.... expect that it has an 350HP LS1 under the hood... which is exactly the same formula Pontiac used for the original GTO in the late 1960's.

Just in case this concept is all still too foreign for you... THIS IS A GOOD THING!

 

Good thing you pointed this out. Some "Anti-New-GTO" folks are getting a little too hysterically desparate in attempting to find things wrong with the GTO.

Instead of simply saying they want a 1960s lookalike, seems things have degraded to tar & feathering Bob Lutz for make believe things that supposedly happened at Chrysler, many years after he was gone.

No wonder GM in general, and Pontiac in particular (not to mention Bob Lutz) gave up listening to some of those guys who: "Bought POS FWD cars from Pontiac out of loyalty", yet reem, degrade and slam a very fast, well made, V8 powered, RWD coupe, that most all haven't even seen in person or seen tests of yet.

Seems they want to tar & feather GM simply because it doesn't look retro, & GM's product guys (rightly) decided after listening to the GTO guys that had constructive criticizm, to blow off the whiners. This isn't directed to 1 person, there are quite a few people like that at that particular website (went surfing there this evening). Yet you go to most of the other more enlightened sites, and the opinions are quite the opposite.

Seems people at that particular site (I really wonder how many are legit & how many are just flamers) as a whole went insane that Bob Lutz didn't wet nurse them, and actually explained his position. I can't blame GM for giving up on them. Those guys had Pontiac & GM's product guys complete attention like no other group in history save maybe Corvette and they blew it.

I think we can learn alot from those guys at that GTO site when the new Camaro comes down the line. No doubt whatsoever, the subjectivity & constructiveness here (not to mention, it seems, general automotive industry knowledge) won't let things degenerate to the point where the people working for our benefit and interested in genuine input are driven off or have to screen where the input comes from.

 

I agree with timebandit.

The GTO was a musclecar. V8. nice exterior design. fast.

Not a bmw.
If you want a bmw, buy a bmw.
The guys I work with that buy bmws buy bmws because that's what their boss bought.
If you want to zip around corners and not hear anything but your boss on your earpiece, get a bmw.

When they want to be the next boss up, they start with mercedes.

The GTO needs to look a lot more aggressive than slapping a grand prix front clip on a $34k australian boat.

 

its as if you don't know what the history of the Holden is...

its been around since the muscle car days of yore...

its the missing link in GM's product line up, that for watever reason stayed hidden away from the U.S. people for as long as time itself. Chevrolet / Pontiac/ olds / buick / caddy etc etc .. HOLDEN is the Generals own, not a rebadged import,and not rice.

surely you have all seen speed channel, you eagerly watched as 650hp V8 supercars pounded the bitumen...

and if people want to compare a Holden to a BMW its because they can, not because they're wanting to be like them.

 

I wouldn't call the Monaro a $34,000 boat. It's shorter & narrower than a Camaro, weighs slightly less than a Cobra, and is about as nimble as a BMW M5..... but it is from Australia (though most of it's parts come from here in the US).

As for aggressiveness, I wouldn't exactly call any post-1968 GTO aggressive looking.

I think Pontiac's intention is to have all the Bimmer's qualities except the price. I honestly don't see someone dishing out new car cash (especially BMW cash) just to be like the boss. I'd wager if you asked them, "being just like the boss" probally isn't the reason they bought them. BMW makes some outstanding cars. Low keyed, and fantastic handling.

The only reason I wouldn't buy a BMW because it's overpriced IMHO. But I'm chomping at the bit for the GTO.

 

The only reason I wouldn't buy a BEEMER is because the stereotypical BMW owner is usually a *****.

I'd be chomping at the bit for the GTO if it wasn't a Pontiac.

 

The cv8-r isnt our gto so to speak. This is OUR version of the GTO.





a bit more aggresive than the cv8-r monaro

 

Man that HSV bodykit esp the rear looks so much nice than the monaro/GTO

 

Look, this had been the discussion for months, even in this very same thread. Perhaps reading it all over again would help you to find out some more facts about original GTO and current GTO. It seems you're quite a bit misinformed.

Grand Prix front? So what? If you had any idea of what a 66 Grand Prix looked like, and what a 66 GTO looked like, trust me, this would be the LAST thing you would be complaining about. Here are two pictures. Hint: they are not both GTO, neither are they both Grand Prix.

http://www.musclecarclub.com/musclec...prix-1966a.jpg

http://ultimategto.com/1966/66_00040_1.jpg

Is the new GTO is too much like BMW? Why? Because its interior is of very high quality? And it is conservatively styled, without plastic body cladding? If it was a stylish, brute performance car with cheap interior, you would be complaining about how cheap the interior is. Look at current Camaro/TransAm/Firebird. It's a greatly packaged, stylish car - yet it gets crappy reviews for its cheap interior plastics and poor craftsmanship.

We finally get a great looking, safely styled vehicle with superb performance, superb handling, gobs of power, incredible interior... and now it's not good enough?

I'll give you that it doesn't have symmetrical dual outlets in the back (but it still has true dual exhaust). And I will give you that it doesn't have hood scoops. Both things are simple appearance issues that WILL BE ADDRESS by next year's GTO (2005 MY, I think). To simply claim the car is not worthy to carry GTO name because of minor cosmetics is, well, absurd, really.

Perhaps this car is not the end of the world after all, is it? And perhaps we ought to give GM a little more credit than we originally did.

 

I don’t think anyone here said anything about the quality of the new GTO being bad. I believe TIMEBANDIT said that there was one at a test facility that had cheap looking cloth interior. And hey it makes sense that Gm might not want to put a set of 1500-dollar seats in a car that’s sole purpose is to be abused. Based on what I have seen and read the Interior of all the Monaro’s are of good quality. Some on here said the interior is as good as any CTS. I didn’t find that to be true of the one I drove but it was good. And yes the rest of the car based on the one I drove DOWN UNDER has great steering characteristics and handling. The power is not as good as my son sons WS6 and maybe not as good as my 96 LT1 vette, but close. The American sold GTO should have as much or more power than the 2002 WS6. And yes we had Pontiac and GM’s ear probably like no other group in history. Did we blow it, maybe we did. But the items that are being added to the car in 2005 I.E. taillights, Hood scoop, true duals, etc all came courtesy of our GTO site and 2 others and GM. If it had not been for the total uproar over the cars bland looks you wouldn’t even have the upgrades that are planned for 2005. And yes I will agree with guionM there were and are a group of guys that will not like the car no matter what it looks like. This is not true of most though. I have thought about it a lot over the last several months and I think that the car will evolve into a car worthy of the GTO namesake. There is nothing about the car that is inherently contrary to what the original GTO stood for. That being said most of the problems with GM and Lutz was over the timetable for the above-mentioned exterior Items. In this day and age of taking a car from design to production in 2 years and we are seeing this happen. GM started with a car that was already built and had they taken the suggestions seriously when they were first made they would have had time to incorporate them into the 2004 version and the car would not have had to evolve. Believe me I know!!!! This huge uproar over the looks didn’t just happen over night with the 3 major GTO sites. Suggestions were made and no comment came from Lutz or GM for about 6 months after some of the suggestions were made. Lutz nor GM responded to the suggestions until some of the guys went on the GTO site and hammered Lutz and GM. I think by the time that Lutz and GM realized that they were alienating a bunch of loyal Pontiac fans it was to late to incorporate the suggestions. So we will see them in 2005. It really is a bad situation for both the original GTO owners that have such a bad taste in their mouths after this and GM. I keep hearing that GM’s intention is to entice some BMW buyers over. I have several Engineer friends that own Bmw’s and I asked them if they would consider a GTO they all responded NO!!!!!! They state that their reasons for buying BMW’s haven’t changed 1 status, 2 quality, 3 image. They truly believe that they have a better car and they don’t care if it is a little bit slower. They also don’t care if they have to pay 8 to 10k more than a new GTO. One of them told me when he goes to town trolling for girls which car looks more impressive the GTO or the bimmer. So I don’t think you will see BMW buyers running to get a new GTO. Also I keep hearing all these guys quoting 33k to 34k for the New GTO I haven’t found a dealer in all of east Texas that will sell one for less that 39k.
And one other thing I have noticed a lot of you guys that don’t have a problem with the looks of the new GTO all have one thing in common. I don’t see a signature from anyone who likes this car showing that they have ever owned a GTO so don’t judge these old guys too harshly. They are responsible for the huge popularity of the muscle car and hot rod mania that you all enjoy so much today.

Thanks BUM_Z

 

I hear ya!