Very well put.

Meanwhile, just skipping through a few points:

1. Complain about dealer markups if you will (seems everyone expects M3s at Malibu prices). But many of you who want to automatically add in the dealer's mark up sat very quiet when Chevrolet and Pontiac dealers marked up Z28s & Trans Ams $15-20,000 over the average price of a normal Z28/Trans Am (typically over $37,000 for the anniversairy SS and $40K+ for the LE Trans Am)? Is there 1 person on this site gullible enough to think the next Camaro won't see markups of $5,000+ early on, as 1994 Mustangs did initially?

2. BUM_Z, it's interesting to hear another perspective on the Monaro. I rode in a CV8, but the car I got to drive was a CV6 which was plenty responsive. The LS1 in Australia has a restrictive exhaust bringing horsepower down to about 300, so it's roughly as quick as a good LT1. I did find the interior better than anything GM made here save maybe the CTS in memory, being well made, very stylish, and generally vault-like. I found it a bit over the top to be a Camaro, but as for what the original GTO was (a luxury Grand Touring car with alot of muscle) Monaro to me seemed like a modern version of it. Holden also has a Monaro GTO and an HSV Monaro which I think you are refering to.

As for Bob Lutz shoving this car down your throat, I think you are being too dramatic. If you don't want the car, don't buy it. It frees up more GTOs for those of us who strongly disagree, and who really want to buy one. No ones forcing anyone to buy anything, so no one's having anything shoved down their throat.

As far as it being overpriced though, as long as GM asked, and people payed (and I'm not talking about some mysterious top secret, just joking, my friend of a friend who's a dealer, "I-got-a-$20,000-rebate, and raped the dealer" prices that some like to bring up here) $33,000+ MSRP price for a 20year old, live rear axle chassis that anyone who went down to the dealer with a 10% deposit could get for about $23,000 by ordering the well equpted base Z28, really can't say the same SS/WS6 base MSRP price for a car like the GTO is too much.

Actually, you can say that.... but you'd look pretty ridiculous.

 

How has Bob Lutz "shoved this car down your throat"?

Are you forced to buy one? No.
How did it backfire? It hasn't even come out yet!

You said it yourself: "We all know they will sell everyone they have"

 

quote from ultimate GTO web site

OLD GTO ENTHUSIASTS:
This influential group of people are going to be the "make or break" test for the new GTO. GTO enthusiasts have pointed out that they are feeling cheated about the so-far proposed styling of the car, revealed on April 20, 2002. According to feedback on this web site, VISITORS are 9-to-1 opposed to the styling of the 2004 GTO. They feel it needs more visual reverence to the older GTOs.

Looks like you guys that like it are a minority!!!!!!!!

So when 90 percent of those asked don't like it, wouldn't you call it at least pushy for Mr. Lutz to bring it here anyway in its present form.[

 

Not really.

A lot of cars have a negative reaction to styling when they are revealed, and then people warm up to them later.

Add to that old school GTO enthusiasts would tend to be against the styling because there is no modern GTO to compare too, and the car is obviously not retro. Now, if you read here much, you'll know I am a huge ANTI-RETRO person, but I will admit *IF* GM ever wanted to use retro styling, GTO would have been a great place because of the long (30 year) productioon gap for the nameplate. However, in order to get GTO here at all, a complete re-styling of the Monaro was not possible.

Another huge point is... with only 18,000 units being built... it doesn't really matter... they will sell, I don't think there is much question to that.

For the record... Do I love the GTO's styling?.... no.. not really... but I am not repulsed by it either. I would consider it if the price were right... and there wasn't crazy dealer mark up....


EDIT: I am not totally dismissing your point... there is something to it, really... I just think it is pretty tough to come down on Lutz for taking action and bringing over a V8, RWD coupe... not everyone likes every car... but at least it is an exciting option that you can look at!

 

Is this that same website that had those irrational whiners (defined as individuals who are slamming GM, Bob Lutz, and the car itself solely on the grounds that it doesn't look like a 1964 GTO ) who still go around thinking that the GTO Judge was some "super" GTO? Yea right. That's the group of people I would make my business decisions and risk my job and company's money on.

One thing about people on any website (and I'm not going to be so one sided as to not include us here at this site) is that we tend to view our little group as the only group that matters and the only opinion that's right. Alot more than "9-to-1" of us here would still support a 4th gen F-body over the upcomming new Mustang even if the Mustang was cheaper, faster, better made, and outsold F-bodies 25-to-1. But that doesn't mean we would be right. To make matters worse, if GM followed our advice in a situation like that, they'd be bankrupt in a little of no time.

I suspect alot of people who are ranting and raving about how "bad" the new GTO is, before it even comes out (?!), will either eventially change their tune, or get passed buy like those guys who were in an uproar over the 1968 GTO, and especially the 1969 GTO Judge.

The simple conclusion is if people like it, they'll buy it. If they don't, they won't. Early indications so far are that GM will sell every GTO they import.

It would be interesting to pull up this thread in 6 months, and then again in a year and compare it with how the car was accepted in the real marketplace.

 

I believe You guys make your points well. But I think that it will take longer than 6 months or a year before the issue is clear. It's when they can build more than 18,000 a year and they become common place that the final out come be told.

Please consider this guys

1. Our polls show that 95% of previous GTO owners will not buy this car in it's present form and not even if they do eventually get it right. Because they all have a bad taste in their mouths from not being listened to. This eliminates about 40% of pontiac's loyal buyer base. So much for good business.
2. When dealers jacked the prices up in 94 on the stangs and in 97 on the Vette's the internet wasn't as wide spread as it is now. These dealer markups will further aggravate the problem. And now in this day people won't forget. All it takes is a little negative publicity to kill sales.
3. Every dealer that we have talked to told us that you cant go by the MSRP released by GM because it was based on not having to pay the gas guzzler tax. So they are saying that MSRP will probably be in the 34k to 36k range.
4. Most of us dont care when it gets here. So getting the car here this year isn't critical. Maybe Lutz doesn't agree with that, but that is how we feel. Even you guys, would you be willing wait another 6 months if it meant that you got a really hot looking car instead of how it is. I think most people would.
5. If you are going to call it THE GREAT ONE you know the LEGEND the car that started the muscle car era. Then take the time to get it right. Everyone understands that hood scoops and tachs don't make a hill of beans difference in the performance of the car, but it does affect the emotional appeal for one. If you don't believe that emotion is part of buying a car and owning one, then ask anyone in here that owns a hot rod F-Body or muscle car. If your not going to do this then let the GTO namesake die and call it something else.
5. Most of the guys that I have talked to would have been fine with a ws6 type of hood and a hood tach, and maybe a tail light cue etc. Is this to much to ask. I think we all understand that a totally retro car is not feasable today. And one our guys said it best the other night (if you took someone out of their 67 GTO and brought them forward in time 36 years they should be able to recognize a new GTO. And it doesn't take much for that to happen).
6. Don't judge everyone on our forum from the posts of a few. And try to remember that all of these guys are passionate about their GOATS and that sometimes makes for very heated discussions. Especially when some one like Lutz says I going to do it my way and leaves you with the impression that He nor GM gives a cats meow about what those people think that made the GTO what it is today.

 

I'd wager most all of this 95% are so hardcore, they wouldn't buy anything that wasn't a spitting image of the old Tempest.

The big problem here is that there's a 30 year gap in GTO production, so of course the "old timers" won't buy it. They remember a car that's been dead longer than over half the people here have been alive (and I'm betting at the minimum the same proportion at that site as well).

But alot of younger (in this case late 30 or 40 somethings who were in diapers or young single digit years when GTO was in it's heyday) who do have a little money, who think BMWs are ripoffs, and who are actually looking for a very fast, well made, RWD car that costs a reasonable and fair amount over the run-of-the-mill FWD cars on the market, will give GTO a really hard look.

Again, time will tell, but I think I can be near certain, 95% of former GTO owners do not make up 40% of current Pontiac buyers, and for each GTO fan who actually is in the market fro a new coupe (most all of the "hard-core" have at least family car and a restored GTO, and would not buy ANY modern coupe) . Whoever came up with that 40% figure, have them e-mail me and I will send them Pontiac's demographics & will point them towards the people they need to contact at Pontiac to get accurate information with that type of detail.

I understand your point about the new GTO perhaps having different taillights & a hood scoop, but GM doesn't control taxes, so I don't count them (I see you included the guzzler tax, but failed to include sales tax & registration, which I believe no one does complaining about car prices). I think we all understand passion as well. You should have seen this website when GM discontinued the F-body!

By today's standards, GTO wasn't very quick, and by no means was fast (all but a few could be outrun by a good Grand Prix GTP), and was always based on an existing mid-sized Pontiac & always looked like the rest of the Pontiac lineup (save the 1974).

But with a hoodscoop and redesigned taillights, although it would still look much like any other Pontiac, it would still fit to a tee the GTO's formula. I haven't heard (beyond those changes) anyone present a credible point as to how the new GTO isn't worthy of the name that didn't involve creating a whole new old style body just for a new GTO alone, which was never what GTO was about.

From what I see, this is the only reason why Bob Lutz seems to be in the gunsights, GM is being ripped, and why this whole uproar over GTO even exists. What baffles me (and probally why some at GM have decided it's better to ignore alot of the criticism) is that what is being demanded not only isn't practical, it what GTO was in reality.

A true modern GTO today would be the FWD Grand Am GT (which it almost was... remember the SC concept from the late 90s?) with Pontiac's biggest engines, the 3800 V6 and GTP's supercharged V6 engines. Instead, Pontiac wisely waited till it had a car that better represented the GTO, and got it to us very quickly.

Pretty hard to fault their efforts, methinks.

 

You left out an important word (Loyal)

As it was explained to me by a Pontiac Pr rep Their loyal customer base is any customer that has bought 2 or more pontiacs over a 10 year period.

That is those guys that buy a new car every 4 to 5 years and what they buy is pontiac because they have always bought pontiac.

Is this 40 percent of their total customer base no it is not. What the actual percentage of the total base pontiac won't release because we have asked for that figure. I think they are afraid that when its published it will hurt sales.

I truly dont believe you are being fair to those of us that would have been fine with a taillight cue, hood scoop, and tach. Its probably in the 75 to 80 percent of those GTO owners that I have talked to that would have been fine with just these small changes. And yes I agree with you that a small hard core group wouldn't buy it under any condition but it is not the percentage you make it out to be. Believe it or not Most GTO owners were really excited about the new car and it really hit some of them hard when they saw what it was going to look like.

Bottom line is with the technolgy of being able to go from design to production in a couple of years. And this car already being built you would think that they could take 6 months make a few changes. This would make a huge portion of GTO owners happy.

Also there are several other sites out there that came up with similar poll results. Most were not as high as 9 to 1 against, but all were decidely against the look of the new GTO.

Its kind of funny we did a poll at a drag strip recently where we showed some pictures and specs of the new GTO and asked the following.

what kind of car do you own
a pontiac
b chevy
c buick
d dodge
e foriegn

what do you think of this car's looks.
a looks great
b looks ok
c looks bad

Would you buy this car if the price was right.
yes
no

92 percent of of pontiac owners answered c on question 1 and no
61 percent of chevy owners answered c on question 1 and no
So you would almost have to be a pontiac owner to understand.
I would be interested to see the results of a non biased poll at one of the f-body forum sites.

 

And one more thing I take exception to your comment about the GTO being slow by todays standards.

Lets put this in perspective

My son has a 2002 WS6 with 6 speed, headers, exhaust, cam, and some tuning. with good tires he ran a 12.06


My 67 GTO 36 years ago 14.22 when it came out.

Today
set of headers, cam, 3 angle valve job with 30 degree back cut. port matched intake and a poor boy port job.
All of which your late model F-body comes with standard.
Set of et streets. Remember we did not have tires that got good traction back in the late 60 and early 70's.

My 67 today 12.72
Now if you deduct 5 tenths for the 500 lbs more that my GTO weighs than my sons F-body that puts you at 12.22.
So 36 years later you have made a whopping gain of 16 hundreths of a second.

 

2 Pontiacs? A Grand Am and a Sunfire would make someone a loyal buyer - does it mean they have a huge emotional investment in the appearance of the new GTO? I doubt it ...

I'd be interested to see a poll done *after* the car comes out, and has a chance to be seen around and about ... might be pretty enlightening.

 

I don't know, the mentality of those people is that no matter how good it is they are still going to hate it...

Its a shame really...

Change is a good thing, stagnation/retro aint :P

and what rational reason do you need a "Hood Tach"???

Only cars I see with Hood Tach's are customised Ricers!


This is about all I'm going to say on this as this whole retro agrument is boring as hell..

 

I gotta say BZ that I agree alot with your views on the new GTO, and especially this:

I've been saying similar things for a long time.

 

I gotta say that I totally agree with you BZ you make your points well, specially the part about taking another 6 months and doing THE GREAT ONE justice. I can wait.

Also looks like BZ's 67 holds up pretty well by todays standards. He might even beat a few F-bodys the older guys are ussually better drivers.

My dad is 42 years old and he owned both a 67 and a 69 GTO. Since then he's had vettes, camaro's and firebirds. If you ask him what the perfect car is he will tell you Gm has made 3.

1957 Chevy
1967 GTO
1969 GTO

They just spent the rest of their time screwing them up.

Based on what I see, most of the people in my dads age group have kids that are grown and gone. So they don't need a coupe. the only reason they would buy a GTO is if it really looked hot and was fast, AND IT DOESN'T LOOK HOT. And with the MSRP of the car being so High and add to that the price gouging by all the dealers, it puts it in to the same price range as a corvette.
Based on the fact that invoice on a base corvette is 39,000 and a 1,000 dollar rebate means you can get one for 38,000 plus or minus a few $ I think a large majority of those buyers that would have looked at the GTO will Buy corvette. It has the looks and speed.

I think LUTZ has SCREWED THE POOCH on this one. Even if it was well meaning.

I think that unless they redesign the car to be more retro and find a way to stop the price gouging it won't be successful.

 

Now I'll be the first to admit that I haven't exactly shopped a Corvette in a while but where in the world are you finding 2003 C5 coupes, convertibles or Z06's for $38,000???? Please tell me for I'd really like to know.

EDIT: http://www.chevrolet.com/corvette/index.html
Straight from Chevy's webiste, Corvette coupes start at $44,435 MSRP...even with the current $2,000 cash back offer you're looking at over 40....and they still sell pretty well, so the chances of being able to talk a dealer down $4,000 are pretty slim (if you can find a bare-bones Corvette in the first place!)

 

Man this thread went to hell...

Least people on my site like the GTO.....

I once did a poll...outta 1000's of people 80& like the GTO...which is pretty high. Matter of fact I bet less people like Art & Science Cadillac than GTO.

For all I care all the GEEZERS can take thier old slow, non-stopping, non-turning GTO's and just stay to themselves. You are not gonna get a retro GTO...that damn simple..

The Monaro is such a excellent performance vehicle one could question if a if teh GTO name was worthy of being put on such a great platform as the Monaro.