Just wanted to let ya know my dad posted that on my name...And yes if you know the right people you can get a base corvette for under 40k. MSRP might be 44 but with the right contacts you can pay just below invoice. I think the holden may perform, but hell so does my 383 formula. And my formula looks a hell of alot more like its predicessor then the so called GTO. If someone wants a car that will perform, that cost alot, and doesn't look ugly, but also isn't the best then the GTO may be the way to go. As far as its heritage and if it is or isn't living up to the name. I don't know never got to drive the GTO. But for a few extra grand i would buy a vette in place of the GTO.

And I will admit i don't know if Aussie's have a muscle car heritage. As far as i know they don't. So I don't see what right they have to beat on the people who take pride in something they never owned or understood.
Later,
JoMo

 

Price gouging is going to happen when there's a new car on the market that is high in demand. High demand usually increases supply, but the GTO is a fixed supply. The price is going to go up no matter what. That's basic economics. They're only making 18,000 GTO's and there is a HIGH demand for these. If they can sell these for $40k or $45k and still sell every one of them, they will. Since Holden can only produce so many for their 3 year contract, I would expect 20,000 GTO's available for the 2005 and 2006 MY until we can mass produce them here in the United States. There will be less of a demand for the GTO at $40-45k and the price will dwindle to $40k and eventually back to $35k once the market can support it at $35k. If there was a factory here that could make unlimited GTO's at the demand of the public, we wouldn't have this problem. Fixed supply situations cause price hikes. Remember the energy crisis and the increasing prices of gas? Remember when the PlayStation 2 came onto market and people were eBay'ing them for $2000+? If you want a GTO and don't want to pay that much, give it another year or two until the demand at higher prices subsides.

Retro doesn't sell anymore. Look at the PT Cruiser, Thunderbird, and Prowler. They don't make the Thunderbird and Prowler anymore and they're practically giving away PT Cruisers because they can't sell them for MSRP. Retro is hot for a few years then dies down fast. The Thunderbird lasted for 2 model years, right? Pontiac wants the GTO to be here to stay. They're making plans for the GTO way past the 2006 MY right now. It's smart to not make it retro. People seen to forget that its a new car that lives up the the old GTO name, and targets the GTO audience, and people OUTSIDE the Firebird and 67 GTO market. This car will bring in BMW buyers of all things! This is a car meant for a new generation (like my generation. I'm still in college) to fall in love with the GTO much like the previous generation did. The future LS6 GTO will be like sex on wheels. When the Gen IV is introduced and put in the 2006-7 GTO, I think we will all be signing a different song.

Besides, what is the purpose of a hood tach? I'd rather have my tach inside the car. Hood scoops look cool on the right car. This GTO is based solely on curves and not artificial openings. Dual exit exhaust will probably come with the 2005 model. Hood scoops are coming in 2005 too. If after 2005, all of you are screaming because it doesn't have a hood tach and the scoops are too small, I think you have other issues that you need to attend to first.

 

hey guys straight from kbb

[Sorry it wouldn't take the whole url

39,068 is invoice cost on base model corvette. I have found several dealers in the Baton Rouge area that will sell one at invoice and still subtract the rebate.
They say they are still making 3% off the hold over. No one down here is getting MSRP for new vettes unless it's a ZO6.

With a 2,000 dollar rebate that is 37,000 plus TT&L. I say that aint BAD

I also checked with a 2 dealers here about the GTO and they both want 35k or MSRP which ever is higher plus 4k I believe that makes 39,000.

By the way neither dealer has sold it's allotment of GTO's for this year, I wonder why?

So if you guys want them, lookem up and give them a call I'm sure they take your money.

Personally I'll take the vette.

 

I wonder how people would feel if GM based the GTO on the Bel Air concept. Of course with new body work.

Make it really retro (should it look like '64,'67 or '69?....because I don't want any arguments), give it some fake hood scoops, ( functional scoops would be breaking tradition...and be unacceptable). Keep the live rear axle and full frame and drum brakes. Make it handle and stop like a pig. Give it a V8....but with only enough power to barely break into the 14's...if that.

Would that make everyone happy?

 

Thats actually fairly offensive, check the Monaro history..

Check out the fact that GM N/A build FWD 4 bangers Holden build RWD V8's..

Thanks for perpetuating stereotype of the ingorant Yank ;P

 

Of course not! Don't you know, every GTO from the factory ran at least 11's....

 

Just a small selection ...

 

Australia has no muscle car heritage!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!


'72 HQ Monaro GTS Coupe
http://www.musclecarsaustralia.com/i...ro%20front.jpg

http://www.musclecarsaustralia.com/i...aro%20rear.jpg

'75 HJ Monaro
http://www.musclecarsaustralia.com/i...S%20Monaro.jpg

im sure the holden boys here can provide more pics/info on monaros, toranas and commodores...

now to the real aussie muscle hehe

Muscle Mustangs & Fast Fords Article
on a 1975 XB Ford Falcon GT-351 coupe
http://www.musclemustangfastfords.co...sie/index.html


'71 XY Ford Falcon GT-HO Phase III
390 hp 351 Cleveland and the fastest 4 door production car in the world from '71 to '85...
http://www.falcongtclub.org/i/Tassie2003_10_big.jpg
http://www.falcongtclub.org/i/Tassie2003_43_big.jpg
http://www.falcongtclub.org/i/Tassie2003_17_big.jpg


'75 XB Falcon GT351 4door
http://www.falcongtclub.org/i/RobboXB19_big.jpg
http://www.falcongtclub.org/i/RobboXB09_big.jpg

'72 XA Falcon GT351 Coupe
http://www.falcongtclub.org/i/Bathur...003_52_big.jpg

'78 XC Falcon COBRA
351C 220hp not bad for the late 70's what did mustangs have then? 4 bangers and 140hp 5.0's
http://www.falcongtclub.org/i/AllFordDay2003_05_big.jpg


Chrysler
'71 VH Valiant Charger R/T E49
305hp/265 hemi inline 6... yes we had 6 cylinder mucle cars!!!
http://www.falcongtclub.org/i/Muscle...003_05_big.jpg

i better stop now...

 

I think this has been put to bed


Good to have another Australian....even if you are from the dark side of the force

 

I for 1 know from being here that the car that we are getting is the only choice we have right now, otherwise there would be no GM musclecar at all until about 06/07. I think it's good that the car is gonna be here and that it will improve year by year. I know it will not have the credibility as the originals but the guys who own the real GTO's are gonna see this car bring the level of overall performance up a couple of notch's, especially the handling and braking. Unfortunately SLP will be doing stuff also which will send the already too high prices even higher. (hopefully they add scoops on the 04) But what I and others are trying to get across is that to be a success you have to make an impression, and not just a performance impression. I know that making a car completely retro is ridiculous (see next M*stang) and can take away from the cars, but cues and especially alot of nicely placed cues, are great.

I feel like this car is not gonna be the hit people think it's gonna be in 04 at least because of the price and looks, and that's gonna lead to it not making the required impression. They should do it right the 1st time. When you say the word GTO or the name of any other musclecar you think of things. This thing should not come out until there is scoops and dual side exhaust on the car, it CANNOT take that long to do it, at LEAST the scoops, functional or not. (some1 posted a picture PSed with scoops, I think it was Ude and it looked great) Right now, the car is too boring, generic, looks like too many other cars, and doesn't have a performance image at all from the ext., none, nothing, it's just not there, another Pontiac sedan. Imagine a new car today having a hood tach and the talk it would create?! The car needs a taillight and rear bumper redesign where GTO cues could be used. The front needs to be de-Grand Prixed a little and more GTO cues should be used. When I go to cruises and talk to people they are all glad about the drivetrain but then the looks are mentioned and complained about, moreso than where it's from or made, actually, I barely ever hear a complaint about that, it's just the generic Pontiac, no performance, not a musclecar looks. The Show Car rims were better also and the tires should be a little wider. This car is not what it should be, it's like it's not complete, for 04 at least, and it isn't since they are gonna improve it year by year by adding things that it should already have starting with the 04. You could always buy 1 though and get to talk about how you have the only year GTO ever without scoops or a performance personality.

 

Ok guys you keep saying retro won’t work and you call out specifically the PT Cruiser, Thunderbird, and the Prowler.

I wanted to see if it was a retro thing that caused these cars to die or something else. So I called a friend that is currently a Regional Manager for GM. He has been in auto sales for 32 years. He has worked for Ford, Chrysler, GM, and Honda. I hope you guys don’t mind I asked him to read this thread and give me his impressions.

John told me that several things have to happen for a car to be successful. He feels that Retro has very little if anything to do with it. With the exception being Retro will help a car stay on market at little longer.

a. Manufacturer has to produce a car with a good value/dollar ratio
b. Manufacturer has to implement the car into the right market.
c. Car has to have good looks.
d. Dealer markups have to be fair and marketable.

On the other hand the demise of a car can totally be attributed to the following.

a. Manufacturer stupidity

· Poor value/dollar ratio
· Targeting the car to the wrong market
· Poor styling
· Poor quality

b. Dealer stupidity

· Overpricing the car
· Bad Service

Lets start with the PT. John was working for Chrysler when the PT came out. He said that the manufacturer did everything that was needed on their part to make the car successful. They built a car that had an excellent value/dollar ratio. The car had good styling, as such it brought people into the dealerships that had never even looked at a Chrysler product before. It had a broad target market due to its exceptional value to dollar ratio. The quality was reasonably good. The only failure of the manufacturer was in not implementing a 2-door version of the car as feedback returned from the dealerships. This car was totally killed by Dealer stupidity. He said that they saw about 15 people a day in his dealership looking at the car. Due to the wait and high demand his dealership was marking the cars up 2k over MSRP. They averaged about 1 to 2 PT sales a day at that price. As supply came up and initial demand came down 1 more of those original 15 a day returned to purchase around MSRP. The other 12 left the dealership feeling like the dealer was trying to rape them and never returned. Case closed.

The Thunderbird was a totally different story. First it was engineered towards the wrong market. I.E. Ford thought they would pick up the old bird fans along with some of the new BMW guys. Ford forgot who the real competition was (Corvette). It had a poor value to dollar ratio. Even though it only cost Ford about 26k to build they were expecting a10k profit with a MSRP of 36k. Its performance was poor compared to the corvette. The quality was not where it needed to be. Then the dealership proceeded to kill it off by jacking the prices up too high. But remember the original corvette was the direct competitor to the thunderbird for 8 to 10 years maybe longer before Ford added the rear seat. The engineers that designed it forgot that. How would it have done with a 400 horse engine, suspension package, and less mark up from the manufacturer? Probably still be here.

The Prowler was almost totally destroyed by the Engineering Group at Chrysler. It had a poor value to dollar ratio. It was overpriced to build even before it made it to the dealership. Its performance was weak compared to the corvette. It was more of a weekend car instead of an everyday driver, which drove it into its own market.

Therefore Retro had nothing to do with the demise of each of these cars.

And you can look at the mustang as a success story in every way and it’s really RETRO.
But you can buy one for 14k anywhere, which means a lot of teens will by this car. And there are more expensive packages that you can move up to as you get older and make more money. This car presently is bought by more generations than any automobile in America. This should be what someone at GM should look at doing. In the 60’s and 70’s the Mustangs and Camaros were within a few hundred dollars of each other in 2002 the base packages were 6k apart. Not understanding what the market is and adapting to that market is what killed the f-body.

Now what is his impression of the new GTO. Well even I was Surprised to here what he had to say. He feels that all things considered it has several things going against it. One is its value to dollar ratio. He says on a scale of 1 to 10 with 10 being the best, it is about a 4 or 5. He feels dealer stupidity will hurt this even more. GM was having huge problems selling the Trans Am at 28k he thinks another 6k will kill the car. He also feels the corvette is a better buy and dealers are gearing up for record sales of the corvette this year. Two is its styling even without the GTO moniker during a recent blind poll that was conducted by a independent contractor 72 percent of the people polled said it looked like a sunbird or cavalier and did not like the looks. Then, when asked if GTO would be a fitting name for the car over 80 percent said no. Add to this the negative publicity from the original GTO owners groups, which are almost overwhelmingly against it. Three is Bob Lutz himself. Most people consider him a great car guy. But in all circles of management that he has been in, most of his peers state he has great initial concepts but is very slow to evolve as times change. I.E. building a 2 door PT. And yes there has been tremendous pressure from his US engineering design crew to make the grille, taillight, hood, tach, and tire size changes to the car before it hits the market. He is almost solely responsible for them not being made this year even going against his marketers and engineers advice. Basically his statement to them was he made a promise to the stockholders that it would debut his year and he wasn’t letting anything stand in the way. They could fix it next year. Also he told me the Initial preorders that Pontiac expected is only about a 1/3rd of the target number and there is great concern over why this is happening. Some in Pontiac are even saying that the initial impression of the car may hurt its image so bad it will never recover even if the engineers do get it right.

 

That is one of the best articles I have ever read.
The shameful thing is that it is all true.


Those who come here often have heard me singing the praises of the GT HO III. I am an AVID collector of Cleveland-powered vehicles, engines, and such. That car is the pinnacle of Cleveland power, US, Aussie, or anywhere else, and stands as one of - if not THE BADDEST street cars ever mass produced IMO. I'd love to get one up here someday.

The 351 Cleveland engines were (and still are) some of the baddest ever made - bar none. The same 351-C head is on Ford's famous BOSS 302 in 1969-70, and we know how they performed. The 351-C was designed for torque, more so than HP, and good-golly do they have torque - like ANY big block. For less than $600, one can have a 351-C with stock internals, 4-bolt mains, stock heads, aftermarket cam, tappets, rockers, and intake and have 500hp/600 tq on the dyno. Seen it, done it - Here's mine in the Mach 1. Until the recent '03 Cobra, the fastest stock Stang in the 1/4 was the '71 BOSS 351 doing 13.08 @ 107 - that's sh1++1n' and gettin' for a 3800-lb land yacht on Poly-Glass street tires boys. And it was powered by... 351-C. Basically the same engine as in the Falcons eluded to by 351Falcon. BUT - as the topic stands - the Aussies made improvements to the 351-C that we lame, retarded, bureaucratic Americans didn't want to invest in. We had the 351-C from '70-'74 and killed it for 2.0L-I4's, while Oz developed their world-famous 351-2v/4v heads and kept the engine alive and DOMINATING for years later.

I know Holden and GM were right in the hunt along these lines as well, but I am avidly into Ford (especially 351-C) equipment, and I can testify that the Aussies have had it going on down there for a loooonnngg time. I have nothing but praise for their high-perf equipment, and jealousy for not getting much of it here.
Another gripe - their performance rides have 4-doors too! double-

BTW 351Falcon, UdeLose posted a link to an Mpeg from the History Channel down there that was an infomercial on the Aussie Falcon. This clip showed a vintage red phase III doing a straight-line burnout from a standstill that must have gone on for 150-200 feet at least. The car was on a shipping dock. Best clip of a vintage Falcon at it's best I've ever seen. Sorry I didn't save the link! Maybe Ude could repost it for you...?

 

Ummm, yes the T-bird IS still around.
It has not OFFICIALLY been given the axe yet.
Corporate news releases have it slated for termination in late '05 or '06 unless things (re sales) change drastically.
They are already doing surveys and response sessions on the next retro bird - a tribute to the '61 models which sold so well - Ah yes, remember the Landau cars... with the opera windows, big Zoro chrome stripes on the B-pillars, and of course vinyl tops that were
simply must-haves ---->

Anyhow, it's still here, and selling pretty well this summer in fact. It's off the 100-day reserve list now.

Just FYI!

 

Been laid up the past 4 days (surgery) so I have a bit of catching up to do here.

1. Retro. Every retro car introduced so far has been a spark in the pan. The problem starts when the enthusiasm peters out & it has to rely on it's own merits. The PT Cruizer today is selling only slightly below what Chrysler initially projected sales to be. It was wildly successful when introduced, and that's the only reason it's being viewed as being in a sales slump today. It's still selling well because it has a practical use, and is still stylish for a minivan (which is exactly what it is). Thunderbird on the other hand failed because it had a rough start, which affected it's momemtum (the uncovered battery in the trunk that could short out the whole electrical system, for example). Once the initial rush petered out, there wasn't much to the car. It did everything OK, but nothing very well.

2. Marketing. Many things come into play for something to be successful, but it all boils down to money. The rest is just mumbo jumbo & double speak because it's nothing more than standard common sense.

The MN12 Thunderbird outsold the Monte Carlo each year it was produced except 1. It was discontinued because it was too expensive per unit to continue production. Corvette sells just a few thousand units per month & it's successful. At $48,000 (I really don't know where you get the $38,000 number but it isn't realistic short of used or heavily used demonstrator models) it clears enough money per unit to be successful. Because of development and manufacturing costs, marketing 101: all things equal, a balence of high production or high price is needed for a item to be considered a success. Monte Carlo is basically an Impala, Grand Prix, & Regal. That's why it's here & the MN12 Bird/Cougar isn't.

3. Loyalty. When GTO was discontinued in 1974, I'm sure people swore off Pontiac, just as many people swore off GM here after the F-body was discontinued. Today some of those people drive Grand Prixs or other cars. Again, this is the "community" mentality. The tendancy to think the opinions in a particular "group" is right even when all other facts are against them.

When it's stated as fact that Pontiac is going to see 40% of it's customers are going to walk away because GM reps got tired of trying to talk to a single small group of people at a website of a car that's been dead for 30 years, when not one of those buyers today mention GTO as a reason why they buy Pontiac in the 1st place (value & looks are the top reason), it's a little egotistical methinks.

4. Bob Lutz. BZ, I don't know where you get your automotive history, or what you read to get it, but to say you know little about Bob Lutz's history at Chrysler and know little about Chrysler itself would be stating the obvious, and here's why. Bob Lutz is commonly known in the industry, and is given credit across the board for jumpstarting Chrysler'd design and product development in the 1990s. The automotive world was knocked off it's socks not only when the PT was displayed at the NAIAS, but it was announced at the same moment that it was going into production in just over a year. Slow to evolve indeed! He also cut Chrysler's development time in half (Trivia: the LH Cars were the 1st cars developed almost entirely by computer). He has also slashed GM's product development time from 4 years down to as low as 18 months. If you hate the guy, at least simply admit it, and leave it at that.

BZ, the new GTO is a car you obviously hate. It also is obvious that you strongly dislike Bob Lutz & Pontiac because they have lumped alot of complaints from the rabid GTO fan base into the "you-can't-please-them-no-matter-what" camp.

If the opinion there was: " OK, the new car's a start. Now what you need to do next is... instead of: "The new GTO sucks even if it's RWD, well made, and the fastest GTO ever...Pontiac sucks, Bob Lutz sucks, and every one there should just die...", and lose the belief that their opinion runs the world, I'm sure things would be alot better (The car wouldn't have seen the light of day if there wasn't a market for it...trust me on this).

Think we ought to simply admit this, and wait & see what actually happens? There will be plenty of time for "I told you sos" later.

BTW: The only thing that sold better than $28,000 Trans Ams were $32,000+ WS6 Trans Ams. Late to the party, but it's the high priced WS6s (as well as the Camaro SSs...around $30,000+) that didn't see decreased sales the final few years. Your example here is wrong, 4th gen Trans Ams sales were for the most part pretty steady till the end.

 

i think i'd take the new mustang over the gto