GTO might actually be as fast as a S/C Cobra.
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From: The Golden State
Originally posted by Ude-lose
The cobra due to its supercharged motor might be faster than the GTO ( but thats not final yet ).
one thing that is for sure is the GTO will have the Cobra beat in handling / seating / interior space / functionality / design / driver position / gear stick position / ergonomics / quality of build / aerodynamics etc etc ... its just a better overall car.
and once you see the car in the flesh, you could possibly add looks to that list depending on your tastes, (everyone that has been to OZ has done an instant backflip in their attitude of how the car looks in real life.)
The cobra due to its supercharged motor might be faster than the GTO ( but thats not final yet ).
one thing that is for sure is the GTO will have the Cobra beat in handling / seating / interior space / functionality / design / driver position / gear stick position / ergonomics / quality of build / aerodynamics etc etc ... its just a better overall car.
and once you see the car in the flesh, you could possibly add looks to that list depending on your tastes, (everyone that has been to OZ has done an instant backflip in their attitude of how the car looks in real life.)
Seeing the Monaro in person is in fact very different then seeing pictures of it. Although the interior is the car's visual highpoint, smooth styled cars seem naturally boring in pictures. The best way to describe it is a sleek rear drive LS1 powered big wheeled, Volvo C70. From the "A" pillar back it's very similar, at a glance the interior looks like it came from the same company, and they seem to be the same size.
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From: Commerce, mi, USA
Snorman - I agree with one thing in your post:
WERM - guess I stand corrected about the greenhouses. But it's an indicator to me that any changes they did make must have been exceedingly subtle. As for "largely unchanged" though... I stand by that opinion. They all look just about the same to me, ever since 1993.
Pentatonic - so much hate, dude. Perhaps you should cut back on the Hatorade.
Really guys... the current Mustang is clearly a success for Ford. Kudos to them for producing (sometimes) the new Cobra and the Mach I. There are some things I happen not to like about them... I will leave it at that.
almighty LS1
WERM - guess I stand corrected about the greenhouses. But it's an indicator to me that any changes they did make must have been exceedingly subtle. As for "largely unchanged" though... I stand by that opinion. They all look just about the same to me, ever since 1993.
Pentatonic - so much hate, dude. Perhaps you should cut back on the Hatorade.
Really guys... the current Mustang is clearly a success for Ford. Kudos to them for producing (sometimes) the new Cobra and the Mach I. There are some things I happen not to like about them... I will leave it at that.
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 599
From: Inland Empire, CA
Originally posted by Pentatonic
But you see, 90% of my friends hate the new GTO. They think it loks too much like a Dodge Stratus with Grand Am sheetmetal. The other 10% of my friends think the car is *OK*. My friends are in the 18-24 year old age group.
However, my dad hates the new GTO as well. He thinks the styling is unoriginal and plain. I still have to get some more opinions of older people.
But you see, 90% of my friends hate the new GTO. They think it loks too much like a Dodge Stratus with Grand Am sheetmetal. The other 10% of my friends think the car is *OK*. My friends are in the 18-24 year old age group.
However, my dad hates the new GTO as well. He thinks the styling is unoriginal and plain. I still have to get some more opinions of older people.
Most people I know don't care for the over the top styling of the Trans-Am/Camaro SS and are looking for something a bit more toned down.
Opinions are kind of back and forth on the Monaro from them, but these are the people lusting after BMWs and Lexus'. That's the market this car is really supposed to be competing in. The G35/IS300/330Ci(or M3...) market. And it comes in well, being a high quality car that isn't over the top. It's not made to have batmobile style agressive looks ala the Trans-Am, because that stuff just didn't work.
Last edited by MunchE; Nov 13, 2002 at 05:28 PM.
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From: Toronto, ON Canada
Originally posted by Pentatonic
But you see, 90% of my friends hate the new GTO. They think it loks too much like a Dodge Stratus with Grand Am sheetmetal. The other 10% of my friends think the car is *OK*. My friends are in the 18-24 year old age group.
However, my dad hates the new GTO as well. He thinks the styling is unoriginal and plain. I still have to get some more opinions of older people.
But you see, 90% of my friends hate the new GTO. They think it loks too much like a Dodge Stratus with Grand Am sheetmetal. The other 10% of my friends think the car is *OK*. My friends are in the 18-24 year old age group.
However, my dad hates the new GTO as well. He thinks the styling is unoriginal and plain. I still have to get some more opinions of older people.
Isn't Monaro based off Commodore, which is based off Catera, which is based off Opel in Europe? The first time I saw pictures of 4-door Commodore sedan, I thought to myself "My gosh, doesn't it look similar to Catera?" That was about 1 or more years ago.
I would be less surprised if people said that GTO/Monaro looks like a 2 - door Catera. So far we only had comparisons to Grand Prix and Grand Am. Now imagine a car of the size and overall dimensions of Catera being compared to GP/GA.
So.... please be patient, and wait for the actual car to arrive.
Here are some pictures of Monaro:
http://www.holden.com.au//images/upl...aro_yellow.jpg
http://www.holden.com.au//images/upl...aro_Sunset.jpg
This shot in particularly presents a better view from the front, and because of its angle - it's radically different from GTO that we saw:
http://www.holden.com.au//images/upl...aro_silver.jpg
It's all in the angle, people!
A shot of interior:
http://www.holden.com.au//images/upl...o_interior.jpg
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 1,040
From: New Haven, CT
Originally posted by Chuck!
For all we know the GTO could be an Aztec with an LS1 in it.
For all we know the GTO could be an Aztec with an LS1 in it.
Will the GTO be faster than the 03 Cobra? Personally, I will just wait anxiously until more cold, hard facts are presented, rather than speculation.
I do hope the GTO is lighter than 3600 lbs. That will kill it's handling ability.
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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 220
From: TN
Originally posted by TheV6Bird
I do hope the GTO is lighter than 3600 lbs. That will kill it's handling ability. [/B]
I do hope the GTO is lighter than 3600 lbs. That will kill it's handling ability. [/B]
i do hope the GTO will perform and i hope it gets a huge power increase,i remember automobile testing the current holden coupe and remarking it was like a Z28 with 20 less HP and 200 extra pounds,not exactly a cobra beater there,which i don't think it will be anyway,which won't take away from the car but it should at least be able to take a mustang GT or at the very least a G35 coupe,if it's over 30K and performs like the marauder or SSR,then GM will have wasted its time.
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 373
From: Anywhere but here
Originally posted by Derek Smalls
not really,the ferrari 575 tips in at over 4000 pounds(!) and it handles just fine,well,not just fine,it's a ferrari,nuff said.same for the cobra,working with what they had,SVT built an all-around incredible performance car that handles really well,it's all about balance and besides everything weighs more than 3000 pounds these days,hell a mini weighs 2500lb.as long as the GTO has the horsepower,the weight won't be a problem.
i do hope the GTO will perform and i hope it gets a huge power increase,i remember automobile testing the current holden coupe and remarking it was like a Z28 with 20 less HP and 200 extra pounds,not exactly a cobra beater there,which i don't think it will be anyway,which won't take away from the car but it should at least be able to take a mustang GT or at the very least a G35 coupe,if it's over 30K and performs like the marauder or SSR,then GM will have wasted its time.
not really,the ferrari 575 tips in at over 4000 pounds(!) and it handles just fine,well,not just fine,it's a ferrari,nuff said.same for the cobra,working with what they had,SVT built an all-around incredible performance car that handles really well,it's all about balance and besides everything weighs more than 3000 pounds these days,hell a mini weighs 2500lb.as long as the GTO has the horsepower,the weight won't be a problem.
i do hope the GTO will perform and i hope it gets a huge power increase,i remember automobile testing the current holden coupe and remarking it was like a Z28 with 20 less HP and 200 extra pounds,not exactly a cobra beater there,which i don't think it will be anyway,which won't take away from the car but it should at least be able to take a mustang GT or at the very least a G35 coupe,if it's over 30K and performs like the marauder or SSR,then GM will have wasted its time.
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Posts: 1,313
To BigDark&Fast:
No dude, you're taking my comments out of context. I didn't misinterpret what you're saying, i just didn't agree with it. It was more of me not agreeing with you then me comprehending it wrong. I think the exterior of the new Cobra is substantially different then the 94's. A 2 year old can look at them and know they're 2 different cars. Darth and Werm agree with me. You could even post a poll and i can guarantee that a good majority of the guys here would agree with me too. You could look at it from every different angle and easily tell the 2 apart. There simply is no mistaking the 2. So i don't agree with your comment about the styling being "largely the same". The sides are different, the back is different, the lights are different, the front is different, the hood is different, and some of the styling cues like the scoops are different. In the end, i think the differences outweigh the similarities. You don't have to agree with me.
As far as "safer to mod", i happen to think the 03 Cobras powertrain is and has been one of the more stronger small blocks available. What have you seen that'd indicate that the Ls-1/Ls-6 would be more "safer" to mod? The T56 transmission has proved itself durable, and the engine has a good list of Blower friendly parts with many of the parts being strong enough to support substantially more Hp and tq. The Ford 8.8" rear end was stronger then the F-bods rear end (will it share that with the GTO?). In the end it comes down to the Cobra just having a stronger bottom-end then the chevy small blocks. CR is fairly low and the engine was built to handle boost with the stock boost setting (7.5psi) being fairly conservative. There is definitely room to grow on. Then you look at the blocks and notice that the Cobras is the more stronger "iron" while the GM smallblocks are "aluminum". So again, i didn't agree with you on this one. I happen to think the Cobra would be "safer" to mod. In the end, it a matter of who's got more $$$$ and the better aftermarket but by looking at the stock list of hardware, i give the Cobra the nod. Just my opinion and you can think differently. In the end, we're both "assuming" 1 will be stronger. Technically, i'm sure both engines will have their advantages.
I like the use of the term "simple" when talking Heads/cam. Why not throw a "simple" stroker, built bottom-end, and blower into the mix too and top it off with a "simple" 75 shot
.
Just my 2 cents
.
No dude, you're taking my comments out of context. I didn't misinterpret what you're saying, i just didn't agree with it. It was more of me not agreeing with you then me comprehending it wrong. I think the exterior of the new Cobra is substantially different then the 94's. A 2 year old can look at them and know they're 2 different cars. Darth and Werm agree with me. You could even post a poll and i can guarantee that a good majority of the guys here would agree with me too. You could look at it from every different angle and easily tell the 2 apart. There simply is no mistaking the 2. So i don't agree with your comment about the styling being "largely the same". The sides are different, the back is different, the lights are different, the front is different, the hood is different, and some of the styling cues like the scoops are different. In the end, i think the differences outweigh the similarities. You don't have to agree with me.
As far as "safer to mod", i happen to think the 03 Cobras powertrain is and has been one of the more stronger small blocks available. What have you seen that'd indicate that the Ls-1/Ls-6 would be more "safer" to mod? The T56 transmission has proved itself durable, and the engine has a good list of Blower friendly parts with many of the parts being strong enough to support substantially more Hp and tq. The Ford 8.8" rear end was stronger then the F-bods rear end (will it share that with the GTO?). In the end it comes down to the Cobra just having a stronger bottom-end then the chevy small blocks. CR is fairly low and the engine was built to handle boost with the stock boost setting (7.5psi) being fairly conservative. There is definitely room to grow on. Then you look at the blocks and notice that the Cobras is the more stronger "iron" while the GM smallblocks are "aluminum". So again, i didn't agree with you on this one. I happen to think the Cobra would be "safer" to mod. In the end, it a matter of who's got more $$$$ and the better aftermarket but by looking at the stock list of hardware, i give the Cobra the nod. Just my opinion and you can think differently. In the end, we're both "assuming" 1 will be stronger. Technically, i'm sure both engines will have their advantages.
I like the use of the term "simple" when talking Heads/cam. Why not throw a "simple" stroker, built bottom-end, and blower into the mix too and top it off with a "simple" 75 shot
.Just my 2 cents
.
Last edited by RiceEating5.0; Nov 14, 2002 at 10:25 PM.
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From: Toronto, ON Canada
Now to reply with the whole 94 versus 99 Mustang debate...
Are they different? Yes. Will someone mistake one for the other? I highly doubt it. I can certainly distinguish both cars without having to think twice.
Now, is 99 a completely different (in appearance) car? It is hard to say.
You see, RE5.0, to me a different design is like 2003 Honda Accord versus 2002. Those are very different cars, but with many similarities. (Or even 98 versus 97 Accords. Please pardon my use of import.)
In my opinion, 99+ are not that different from 98- Mustangs. The overall dimensions are the same (almost), with major difference in round versus angular shape. It's like applying LS1 Camaro formula for the front fascia to the rest of the car, and calling it a completely new and different Camaro (from LT1). This certainly wouldn't make much sense to me. Even restyling the dash won't do the trick, with Mustang having minimally updated even that.
Now, I'm not saying the 99+ isn't a new car - it is, but it's not radically different from 94 through 98.
OK, that's it for now
Are they different? Yes. Will someone mistake one for the other? I highly doubt it. I can certainly distinguish both cars without having to think twice.
Now, is 99 a completely different (in appearance) car? It is hard to say.
You see, RE5.0, to me a different design is like 2003 Honda Accord versus 2002. Those are very different cars, but with many similarities. (Or even 98 versus 97 Accords. Please pardon my use of import.)
In my opinion, 99+ are not that different from 98- Mustangs. The overall dimensions are the same (almost), with major difference in round versus angular shape. It's like applying LS1 Camaro formula for the front fascia to the rest of the car, and calling it a completely new and different Camaro (from LT1). This certainly wouldn't make much sense to me. Even restyling the dash won't do the trick, with Mustang having minimally updated even that.
Now, I'm not saying the 99+ isn't a new car - it is, but it's not radically different from 94 through 98.
OK, that's it for now
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Joined: Jun 2000
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From: MI
BigDarknFast,
Hate......well......moreso bitterness....but that's another story.
MunchE,
Where do I list Zaino as a mod? Because it's in my sig? The word "Black' is listed in my sig, does that mean I have "Black" as a mod too?
Ude-Lose,
You say the GTO will beat the Cobra in the following areas:
handling-maybe it will, I'm not sure of the handling of the Monaros.
seating- No. The Cobra, like the Camaro, is basically a 2-seater car with a small back seat in case you and your buddies happen to be in a pinch. I don't consider a cramped back seat a negative aspect of a performance car.
interior space-Sure, but again, it's a performance car. I think the Corvette interiors are quite cramped, especially for a bigger guy like me, but you don't see me complaining about the Corvettes being inferior.
functionality-Huh?
design-Design? You mean styling? Yeah right. You mean engineering? Not really.
driver position- I have absolutely no problem with driver position of the Mustangs.
gear stick position-Yeah, I'll give you that.
ergonomics-OK.....now this is where you'd really have to drive a Monaro ("GTO") to make a conclusion.
quality of build- Egh.....I suppose. I've never really had a problem with quality of build for Cobra's. Maybe they aren't high quality, but they're sufficient.
aerodynamics- Are you sure?
Hate......well......moreso bitterness....but that's another story.
MunchE,
Where do I list Zaino as a mod? Because it's in my sig? The word "Black' is listed in my sig, does that mean I have "Black" as a mod too?
Ude-Lose,
You say the GTO will beat the Cobra in the following areas:
handling-maybe it will, I'm not sure of the handling of the Monaros.
seating- No. The Cobra, like the Camaro, is basically a 2-seater car with a small back seat in case you and your buddies happen to be in a pinch. I don't consider a cramped back seat a negative aspect of a performance car.
interior space-Sure, but again, it's a performance car. I think the Corvette interiors are quite cramped, especially for a bigger guy like me, but you don't see me complaining about the Corvettes being inferior.
functionality-Huh?
design-Design? You mean styling? Yeah right. You mean engineering? Not really.
driver position- I have absolutely no problem with driver position of the Mustangs.
gear stick position-Yeah, I'll give you that.
ergonomics-OK.....now this is where you'd really have to drive a Monaro ("GTO") to make a conclusion.
quality of build- Egh.....I suppose. I've never really had a problem with quality of build for Cobra's. Maybe they aren't high quality, but they're sufficient.
aerodynamics- Are you sure?
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 358
From: AU
Originally posted by Pentatonic
handling-maybe it will, I'm not sure of the handling of the Monaros.
Both have IRS , but the monaro has a light weight aluminum V8 and the cobra has a err emm iron block V8 + supercharger
seating- No. The Cobra, like the Camaro, is basically a 2-seater car with a small back seat in case you and your buddies happen to be in a pinch. I don't consider a cramped back seat a negative aspect of a performance car.
when you say a 'performance car' i think you mean sports car, you could classify the GTO as a muscle car, a car that functions similar to its sedan counterpart but with huge 'performance', so yes a comfortable back seat is a must.
http://www.holden.com.au//images/upl...o_interior.jpg
interior space-Sure, but again, it's a performance car. I think the Corvette interiors are quite cramped, especially for a bigger guy like me, but you don't see me complaining about the Corvettes being inferior.
again dont compare a sports car to a musclec car...
functionality-Huh?
a major worry for a new introduced vehicle can be , annoying bugs in the design and functionality, isnt the cobra side-lined for a few months(good example), well the monaro has been around for a few years now in oz, and what you americans will be getting is like the 2nd gen monaro, also tried and tested is the left hand drive application of the vehicle in the UAE, again no problems reported.
design-Design? You mean styling? Yeah right. You mean engineering? Not really.
yes the controls, position of buttons, switches, the handles , little things like that., the asthetics of the car, the pleasure of wanting to jump in and go for long enjoyable drives, i have heard that the mustangs interior leaves a lot to be desired.
driver position- I have absolutely no problem with driver position of the Mustangs.
The mustang feels like your sitting too high, the f-body feels like your too low, the GTO is a mix of both of these not too high and not too low - just right !!
ive also heard that the mustangs seats are narrow, and only thinly built people can get comfy in them , someone with broad shoulders would get un-comfortable very fast...
gear stick position-Yeah, I'll give you that.
i heard you have to lift your butt out of the seat to reach the gear stick ...
ergonomics-OK.....now this is where you'd really have to drive a Monaro ("GTO") to make a conclusion.
wont be long now !!!
quality of build- Egh.....I suppose. I've never really had a problem with quality of build for Cobra's. Maybe they aren't high quality, but they're sufficient.
so long as you're happy with sufficient ... he he he .
aerodynamics- Are you sure?
im not sure about the cobra , but the monaro is Cd 0.31, does anyone know the cobras? and how about road noise and cabin quietness.
handling-maybe it will, I'm not sure of the handling of the Monaros.
Both have IRS , but the monaro has a light weight aluminum V8 and the cobra has a err emm iron block V8 + supercharger
seating- No. The Cobra, like the Camaro, is basically a 2-seater car with a small back seat in case you and your buddies happen to be in a pinch. I don't consider a cramped back seat a negative aspect of a performance car.
when you say a 'performance car' i think you mean sports car, you could classify the GTO as a muscle car, a car that functions similar to its sedan counterpart but with huge 'performance', so yes a comfortable back seat is a must.
http://www.holden.com.au//images/upl...o_interior.jpg
interior space-Sure, but again, it's a performance car. I think the Corvette interiors are quite cramped, especially for a bigger guy like me, but you don't see me complaining about the Corvettes being inferior.
again dont compare a sports car to a musclec car...
functionality-Huh?
a major worry for a new introduced vehicle can be , annoying bugs in the design and functionality, isnt the cobra side-lined for a few months(good example), well the monaro has been around for a few years now in oz, and what you americans will be getting is like the 2nd gen monaro, also tried and tested is the left hand drive application of the vehicle in the UAE, again no problems reported.
design-Design? You mean styling? Yeah right. You mean engineering? Not really.
yes the controls, position of buttons, switches, the handles , little things like that., the asthetics of the car, the pleasure of wanting to jump in and go for long enjoyable drives, i have heard that the mustangs interior leaves a lot to be desired.
driver position- I have absolutely no problem with driver position of the Mustangs.
The mustang feels like your sitting too high, the f-body feels like your too low, the GTO is a mix of both of these not too high and not too low - just right !!
ive also heard that the mustangs seats are narrow, and only thinly built people can get comfy in them , someone with broad shoulders would get un-comfortable very fast...
gear stick position-Yeah, I'll give you that.
i heard you have to lift your butt out of the seat to reach the gear stick ...
ergonomics-OK.....now this is where you'd really have to drive a Monaro ("GTO") to make a conclusion.
wont be long now !!!
quality of build- Egh.....I suppose. I've never really had a problem with quality of build for Cobra's. Maybe they aren't high quality, but they're sufficient.
so long as you're happy with sufficient ... he he he .
aerodynamics- Are you sure?
im not sure about the cobra , but the monaro is Cd 0.31, does anyone know the cobras? and how about road noise and cabin quietness.
Last edited by Ude-lose; Nov 15, 2002 at 02:57 AM.
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Posts: 1,873
From: South Jersey
Originally posted by Ude-lose
when you say a 'performance car' i think you mean sports car, you could classify the GTO as a muscle car, a car that functions similar to its sedan counterpart but with huge 'performance', so yes a comfortable back seat is a must.
http://www.holden.com.au//images/up...ro_interior.jpg
again dont compare a sports car to a musclec car...
when you say a 'performance car' i think you mean sports car, you could classify the GTO as a muscle car, a car that functions similar to its sedan counterpart but with huge 'performance', so yes a comfortable back seat is a must.
http://www.holden.com.au//images/up...ro_interior.jpg
again dont compare a sports car to a musclec car...
Length 183.5/186.8 (Monaro by 3.3")
Width 73.1/71.8 (Cobra by 1.3")
Height 52.4/54.5 (Monaro by 2.1")
Okay, so... they are about the same size, the same weight, both have a V8, RWD, and two small rear seats (you are not going to get a huge back seat, again, refer to the dimensions above). So, now how is one a "sports car" and the other is a "muscle car"? This is not the 1964 GTO.
I could make just as much of an arguement that an Accord and Camry are in a different class of sedan because the Camry has a larger rear seat, and the accord has a coupe version. Don't Compare a Sport Sedan to a Family Sedan!
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 358
From: AU
maybe the line is blurred ... on the definition of a sportscar / musclecar ,
the reason i say the new GTO lends itself more to the 'muscle car' name is because just like the original muscle cars , there was your ho-hum family sedan which it was based on, in this case the Commodore 4 - door.
does the F-body have a family sedan variant -NO...
Is the mustang based on a family sedan ??? again No.
just my .02c
the reason i say the new GTO lends itself more to the 'muscle car' name is because just like the original muscle cars , there was your ho-hum family sedan which it was based on, in this case the Commodore 4 - door.
does the F-body have a family sedan variant -NO...
Is the mustang based on a family sedan ??? again No.
just my .02c
Last edited by Ude-lose; Nov 15, 2002 at 09:37 AM.
