CV6 was in the $28-29K range. The CV8 was about $33K+. The Hoilden Ute with LS1 went for around 20. The Commodore SS with LS1 went for about $25-27K loaded.

Why not pick up a 2nd gen for a couple thousand & throw a couple more on a drivetrain.... No, wait! Why not get a 68 Nova for a couple hundred and find a good old 454 LS6 to throw in. Then again, you can simply build yourself a bare bones chassis & strap on a GE engine from a 747. Then you could really go outrun GTOs.

We're comparing modern cars here. There's no limit to what you can do to a car if you stick with an old car and don't have to worry about pollution and emission standards or new car warranties. If there's a modern car (say within the past few years at least) that you would rather have or think is better, then bring it to the table.

Plus, what on earth do you mean by "Conservative AND ricey"??

$12,000 for a GTP??

Where, where??



The price gouging (and the arrogance of the Pontiac dealers selling them) turned me off from getting one, and I've come across plent of others who wanted one but refuse to pay as much as dealers are charging. Meanwhile, according to those who have posted here, and my own experience in Tolleson Arizona (just west of Phoenix) dealers that charge list price have no trouble moving them.

As far as someone putting a real GTO and the current one together, I'd say the problem is completely theirs. To this day, I have a problem looking at a base economy car called the Tempest or LeMans, then looking at a GTO of the same year, and then hearing griping from people who say GTO had a special look.

 

That would depend on when you looked at the currency exchange. At the point the GTO was announced it was $28k for a CV8. There was one option that was big bucks that wouldn't be available for the GTO. Forget what it was. Maybe their version of Onstar or something, but it was like $1800 or something like that that shouldn't have been included when figuring out what a GTO would cost.

Re-read his sentence..It says a used GTP

 

I think someone coined a phrase here that perfectly fits some people: GTO-haters.

There are people who had a legitamate issue with the current GTO in that it didn't have the things that set previous GTOs apart from their run of the mill brethern: HOODSCOOPS. It was also pretty bizzare having a true dual exhaust system that exited on just one side of the car. I'll even give you that one.

But outside of those items, it becomes clear who the people are that are aware of what GTOs actually were and those who are the haters, and IMHO, GTO posers.

*They say GTOs look like "Grand Prix". Actual GTO enthusiasts know GTOs were Tempests & LeMans with an engine & suspension package. Beyond that, they looked just like that 6 cylinder Tempest or that entry level LeMans parked right next to it on the showroom floor. At least now, it looks like Pontiac's top sedan, and not it's bottom one.

For those that still have their heads in the sand on this, try:
1) '64 Pontiac Tempest:http://www.motorcity-memories.com/Au...st_custom.html
'64 Pontiac GTO:http://ultimategto.com/scripts/showc...964/64_00003_1
2) '68 Pontiac Lemans:http://home.houston.rr.com/lemans68/
'68 Pontiac GTO: http://ultimategto.com/scripts/showc...68/68h_00007_1
(it goes on like this each year, so I don't need to post them)

*They say that GTO replace the Camaro. Chevy and Pontiac are 2 different divisions. The slightly more intellegent ones (which excludes the guy who wrote the report for Car & Driver television) say it replaced the Firebird, completely overlooking that gapping hold left by the equally slow selling Grand Prix GTP coupe, which the GTO actually replaced.

*They say the new GTO is too expensive. Yet, the old GTOs were the most expensive muscle cars on the block. Loaded GTOs in 1968 cost as much as mid level Corvettes. That's why when Plymouth Roadrunner came out in '69, it immediately became the #1 selling muscle car... it was cheap while GTOs weren't!

*The haters also say it isn't "styled" like a GTO. Well, what does a GTO look like? Which one of these is the actual GTO look:
http://ultimategto.com/scripts/showc...964/64_00001_2
http://ultimategto.com/scripts/showc...965/65_00004_1
http://ultimategto.com/scripts/showc...68/68h_00007_1
http://ultimategto.com/scripts/showc...970/70_00002_1
http://ultimategto.com/scripts/showc...973/73_00007_1
http://ultimategto.com/scripts/showc...974/74_00005_1

Are are actual GTOs. All look like more the more mundane Pontiacs they were based on. That's why every time I hear someone say the new GTO doesn't have "GTO styling" they completely loose credibility with me.

Most people who simply don't like the styling of a certain car, can usually admit to the car's good points & recognize that's their problem is simply a matter of styling. That's the issue with many here on the Chrysler 300 or the new Mustang. They recognize that the car itself is pretty good, but they are just put off by the styling. But you never hear them slamming the company or looking for every thread of bad news, to wish the car an early death the way new GTO-haters seem to.

Lighten up guys. GM is not going to make a 1960s looking car to appeal to you. GM isn't going to create a unique car just for you. And, yes, once the GTO gets a set of hood scoops and decent tailpipes, it will be a "GTO". I just hope you guys will be honest enough to admit it then.

You simply don't like the styling, fine. GTO enthusiasts screamed bloody murder when GM brought out the "Softened" "Feminine" looking 1968 GTO too. Those people either came around or are now on the scrap heaps of history.

 

Thanks for your balanced post guionM. I agree with just about all of it.

 

I think your way off base. A GTO looks more like a 90's pontiac than what it should look like. Its a very tired looking design. I don't think 400HP hood scoops, hood tach;s, better looking dual ex. etc.. is going to help it one bit. If a GTO cost around $33k now, what will it cost with an LS2 and all those other options above mentioned?

 

Good post Guoin. The sad thing is that what you said in it, has been said by yourself and numerous people (including me) in multiple posts already in this thread.

At this point though, I am beginning to think it's "bang your head against the wall" time. Even after countless posts cutting through the crap and outlining what truly was a GTO - not what you think, or you heard what a GTO was and balancing those truths against the new car, people are still coming up with "yeah, well it looks like a Grand Am, a Grand Prix, it looks like yada yada" or it's not a GTO. Please, spare me...

Fact is, the new car is everything the classic car was and more. Really, about the only thing people haven't jumped on is the lack of a 389, 400 or 455 big block engine in the new car. Strange, because that and the suspension changes is what really made the classic GTO a GTO.

 

Take a look at this month's Hemmings Muscle Car Mag. Even though they have writen many an article on talking about the new GTO NOT being a GTO, one writier shoved it down there throats and make a It IS a GTO article. Its very well writen, and expands on Guys post in about 4 pages.

and as I recall, one of the guys in that mag that bashes the GTO has his cartoon likeness driving a Taurus SHO.....

 

The new GTO looks like a current Pontiac, just like the 60s Goat looked like a Pontiac from that era.

It fits in with the current Grand Am, Grand Prix, & Bonneville. I'll leave off the Sunfire & Aztec, because nothing fortunately looks like them.

The new GTO will cost the same as the current one. LS2's are replacing LS1s across the board. Sending a pipe out the other side of the rear end is also a no-cost item. All the items going on next year's GTO are relatively no or low cost items. No one said anything about a hood-tach though.

Again, "The new GTO can do no right" mindset shows it's face again.

No one is saying that they doubt the 5th gen Camaro will sell any better with IRS, better build quality, and a new chassis that doesn't date to before many 4th gen owners were born. No ones worried about the cost increase on the next Camaro's independent rear suspension, yet you're nay-saying next year's GTO because of 50 horsepower and a moved tailpipe???!

As for tired designs, isn't a 35 to 40 year old Pontiac Tempest and LeMans design (which seems to be what alot of "haters" want) that sold volumes in the multi hundreds of thousands a bit more tired than a car that has never been sold here that has the Pontiac G6's nose (a car that isn't even out yet?) that is only selling about 18,000 per year?

The GTO, in RedPlanet's exact words, is a "blank canvass". What he meant by that is that it's a great looking basic design in which anything you add to it really makes the car stand out:
http://www.hppontiacweb.com/features..._gtoautocross/ (click on pictures)
http://www.caranddriver.com/article....rticle_id=8208
http://ultimategto.com/scripts/showc...004/04_00028_7
http://ultimategto.com/scripts/showc...04/04_00028_11

Again, GTO's visually were nothing special over Pontiac's run of the mill car. The magic was in the engines. Here's another look from 1968:
http://ultimategto.com/scripts/showc...68/68h_00062_1
http://ultimategto.com/scripts/showc...68/68h_00002_1

 

The pontiacs today look like early 90's pontiacs minus the body cladding and it is a damn tired look. The GP, Grand Am, etc do absolutely nothing for me. It is a tired boring design. Look at the GM GTO concept of a couple years back. You can say all you want, but the masses have spoken and it shows in the sales numbers. If I bought a GTO at sticker or heaven forbid with a mark up, i'd be a little worried when/if GM slaps a $2000 rebate and knocks my resale value down. Oh I know, not supposed to think resale value, but if your car gets stolen you may wish you had gap insurance.

If you don't think a new hood , new motor and different exhaust won't add on cost your off base. Nevermind supply cost, testing, etc. Just look at the extra warranty costs putting a 400hp motor in a 3800lb car, especially with an auto tranny. Hope the current GTO driveline can handle the added 50hp and tons more torque. Also lets hope the Aussie dollar doesn't rise or that is instant $$ added onto the sticker price. I'd be very suprised if it doesn't have a $36k+ sticker price. I'm sure Lutz is a little red faced over this.

 

To answer your points:

1. Resale value will be high because the car will be relatively rare. Rebates do bring down car values, an if I paid over sticker on a Taurus that sells over 300,000 cars per year, I'd be sweating. But compared to the reasle value slashing on nearly same-price-when-new Camaro SSs, who's worrying?

2. Since you pointed out the Grand Am & Grand Prix do nothing for you, then your issue is with Pontiac's styling direction, not the GTOitself. Pontiac is going low keyed in styling, and save for the 2005 GTO, it's going to be pretty much across the board. BTW: The GTO's front end more resembles a G6 anyway.

3. Let me get this straight. A new hood, a re-routed 4 foot section of exhaust pipe is going to send prices of the 2005 up into the stratosphere, yet adding independent rear suspension, engineering an all new chassis, and vastly improved build quality doesn't have you worried about the 5th gen Camaro?? Seems we have a double standard on thinking going on here.

What's a redesigned hood & tailpipe going to cost spread out over 36,000+ cars? $30? $40? That difference doesn't even add up to an inflation based price increase on a unchanged car going into a new model year.

4. As for the engine, why do you feel it's going to cost more? Again, this is an issue you aren't bringing up regarding the next Camaro. Why? Because it isn't an issue. It's common knowledge that aside from additional cooling requirements, it costs just as much to make a 5.3 as a 5.7 or 6.0. This means the LS2 isn't going to cost any more than the LS1. The idea that simply because an engine produces 50 more horsepower, but is otherwise the same being more expensive to make is silly, especially since it's going to be an across the board replacement engine. They'll probally save money by not making the 5.7 in favor of using the truck's 6.0 displacement anyway.

5. Again, you are letting your "GTO-Hater" mindset stand in the way of reality and common sense. The GTO has the Corvette transmission & Corvette based differential. Are you raising this issue regarding the Corvette? No, but you certainly are reaching for it with the GTO, and I think I know you well enough to believe you're better than that.

6. As far as the Aussie dollar rising, no one can predict that. But the Germans, Japaneese, & Koreans are able to handle fluxuating currencies, and you can bet the farm that these possibilities are factored in when marketing and pricing a vehicle. The only way the GTO is going to bounce up to a $36,000 starting price from $32,000 is if our own economy's bottom drops out. A very likely scenario with out ballooning deficit, our billion dollar a day police duty in Iraq, and the Feds being forced to raise intrest rates.

7. As far as Bob Lutz being red faced, I doubt it. First of all, the man's probally the richest person working at GM (he was born into money, had a pretty hellacious amount of stock to cash in when he left Chrysler, and was still collecting the assorted multi zero paycheck before being grabbed by GM). 2nd of all, he has more control over product than any GM executive in decades. I think he's more concerned about high volume new Colbalts, LeCrosses, and GM's other 3,000,000 cars and trucks per year, in addition to GM-Europe (which he is currently running till another CEO is found) to be worried about a car that's has a projected annual sales barely 2/3s of Corvette.

Bottom line is that the Monaro was designed from the get-go (at a mere $60 million pricetag... just the '98 Camaro's nosejob cost twice that!) to make profits running just 3 years at 5,000 cars per year.

Now, YOU do the math here. That 3 years has been extended to 5 years, and that 5,000 cars per year has been upped by an additional 54,000 vehicles over a 3 year period. That investment that was to be spread over just 15,000 cars is now spread over a total of 79,000 cars.! Plenty of financial room for add-ons.

There is a really, really good reason why GM's product planning comittee signed off on bringing the Monaro over here so Godawlfully fast (once the "not-invented-here-crowd" blocking the cars were pushed aside), and why GM has been less than willing to discount or rebate the cars till the end of the model year. It's essentially a cash cow.

If Mr Lutz is a little redfaced about something, it's about the latest sales figures of GM-Europe, not whether or not the GTO sells 14,000 this year or the full 18,000.

 

Guion, I agree with you that the GTO was never a really stand out car like others were because it was just an add-on option. I am a constant at cruises/shows and I see stuff always driving around and it's really difficult to tell a GTO apart from the others. You have to look for the scoops and emblems etc. But, most would just like to see a few cues from those cars in the body. If they don't wanna take cues from the originals in that way, hood scoops, dual outlets, etc., is fine for me and would make it credible. Although, I'd rather see the body look a little like at least one of the real GTO's. I feel like after 05 this car will be fine because it will have all the missing GTO "qualifications."

Add scoops, better rims/tires, (at least polished looking rims) outlets on each side, change the bumpers, recess the grill, maybe change the taillights up, and the car would now be a GTO in the same sense as the originals. (hood tach would kick *** BTW) It needs GTO characteristics. The only things that people would have left to complain about is that it's not from the US and that it has no Pontiac engines. But as we all know, there is no choice for either of those things in these times.

 

Its a rare car now that nobody wants. If GM and dealers start discounting (which at the rate they are selling has to happen) it will drastically drop the value over 10% over night.

Your telling me you like something about Pontiacs 16 year old styling and that GM doesn't wait way too long to change their styling? How bout this. It looks like any late 80's and 90's style GM.

Adding IRS wasn't new. The Monaro had it before the GTO, as was the chassis, and I imagine the new Camaro would not be on its own personal chassis. LS2's like I said will be more expensive in the warranty department. Ever build a race car? I had one that went from 14's to 8's and any racer will tell ya, the faster it is, the more it will break. A custom hood. As anyone who owned a WS6 like I did can tell you, It costs more to make the hood, and it could cost more to paint the hood. Re-routing an exhaust pipe could cost more than just bending a pipe a different way.



Answered aboveAgain, If you ever built a race car or know anything about transmissions and rear ends, what breaks both is a combination of torque and weight. The Corvette weighs 400lbs less and can carry 2 passengers.


Yes they all deal with it and they sometimes don't make as much or even lose money doing it. The aussie exchange rate at the time the GTO was announced was around 50%, it is now in the 75% range. It could very well be that GM could be losing money on the cars even at this price. My point being that it used to be alot cheaper to have a car built down under a year and a half ago. I would say GM either is losing money on GTO's now, or they had it figured into the $33k price tag and that is why it is so high. Yes an f-body cost the same, but it was built by people making twice as much money at the time. I'll leave politics out of this thread.


So why would a guy that is born into so much money work at such a high demanding high stress job? Its Ego. Yes of course he is more concerned about those other high volume cars, but if you think he doesn't mind the red mark the GTO is currently leaving on him you are wrong, especially since it is such a high profile car in the media. Who want to be known as the guy who brought back the GTO and couldn't sell em.

Don't see what that has to do with the price of tea in China. They did a very good job designing the car for Australian buyers. We have had that design for 16 years now.

So GM is gouging us? Why did they not pass on the savings? Looks like whoever designed the 98 Camaros nose got ahold of the GTO to warrant a $33k price tag.



They wanted it here fast because they had no other sports car besides the Vette. They could have brought it here years ago.

Like I said up top. Yes he has bigger fish to fry, but for one of his Ideas to fail will make him red faced.

 

I am asamed that my car is called a GTO. How dare GM take a wonderful car like mine a put some old crappy built 70s GM car name on it. Or have you all forgotten how horrible GM cars were in the late 60s early 70s? The Holden Monara is a far better car than GM NA could have built at the time the Holden came to be down under. What decent RWD platform did gm have in the mid 90s?

The initial quaility of my Monaro is far better than that of my previous C5 vettes. And my Camaro feels like a kit car compared to my GTO.

Its not a muscle car its a everyday performance coupe. that happens to pack a V8 at what its comp. charges for a V6.

 

You don't even have to know what a GTO looks like to see its a sales failure. All you need are how many they ordered and how many they sold. No one is saying its a bad car, or a bad performing car. Most don't like the styling as subjective as that is it is not selling. It is failing to meet its sales goals which makes it a failure. Arguing over the looks is like arguing over if Pamela Anderson or Carmen Electra is better looking (btw its Carmen Electra ), arguing over why the car isn't selling is another. It doesn't matter why the GTO isn't selling, fact is IT ISN'T SELLING!

 

GN, you gotta give the GTO a second chance to sell now that the edmunds national true price for the GTO is MSRP not $5K mark up.

The dealers have now gotten the message that they won't be selling any GTO's for more than sticker.

The GTO is better than the normal GM stuff in that it should be a car that sells for sticker with no incentives for 3/4 of the model year and then gets discounted in the fall to make way for the next year model.

But like I said before the GTO should stay away from scoops and trashy add ons. Is is that hard to enlarge the wheel wells, add 18's, and flare the fenders for am much more muscular look?Geez! Pontiac says they want to be the American BMW. They might want to learn from the M3 to start.