Gt500: Loses weight, get's faster avoids gas guzzler tax.
02-09-2010, 09:46 AM
#31
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When the GT500 first came out, you could go...
Then, when the Camaro specs... the beginnings of acceptance.
And everyone of us is subject to systematic desensitization. When unconventional ways become the norm, we no longer complain about them. Before too long, reminiscing about 2800 lbs racers will be antiquated.
02-09-2010, 01:16 PM
#32
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Really? Do you think the CTS-V would compete with the GT500? Afterall, it is superior to the current M5 and Jag XKF and right with the new C63 AMG. Atleast according to the reviews I have read and track times I have seen. I have only pesonally driven a CTS with the 3.6.
Wouldn't a LSA Z28 Camaro have similar performance but in a less expensive and less luxurious package? If that is the case then it would compete quite nicely as the CTS-V is praised for its handling and puts up great track times.
There is a very real difference between "compete" and "dominate". From what I see of Ford lately, there will be no more "dominating".
Wouldn't a LSA Z28 Camaro have similar performance but in a less expensive and less luxurious package? If that is the case then it would compete quite nicely as the CTS-V is praised for its handling and puts up great track times.
There is a very real difference between "compete" and "dominate". From what I see of Ford lately, there will be no more "dominating".
I love the CTS-V, but it is neither a Camaro nor a Mustang. Or a Mustang competitor. The CTS-V shares nothing with a theoretical LSA Camaro other than powertrain. An LSA Camaro would have similar power and torque to a GT500 but have to hump around an extra 300 pounds of mass. Simple math.
With that said, I'm sure people would buy them regardless. But it won't be doing Camaro any image favors when it loses to Mustang in all the comparos.
02-09-2010, 02:14 PM
#33
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I love the CTS-V, but it is neither a Camaro nor a Mustang. Or a Mustang competitor. The CTS-V shares nothing with a theoretical LSA Camaro other than powertrain. An LSA Camaro would have similar power and torque to a GT500 but have to hump around an extra 300 pounds of mass. Simple math.
With that said, I'm sure people would buy them regardless. But it won't be doing Camaro any image favors when it loses to Mustang in all the comparos.
With that said, I'm sure people would buy them regardless. But it won't be doing Camaro any image favors when it loses to Mustang in all the comparos.
But I still say the LSA's horses seem to be a bit healthier, somehow, than the horses generated by the Mustang's 5.4L. The CTS-V has 300-400 lbs over the current GT500 (4300 lbs, vs 39xx). And the times I've seen for the CTS-V are as quick or quicker than the times I've seen for the Mustang. I think I've seen a low 12.x @ 119 mph for the six speed auto car. I wouldn't be so sure that an LSA Camaro would lose to a Mustang, at least when it comes to performance. Of course, the Camaro's other disadvantages (bad visibility and claustrophobic interior, more controversial interior styling / execution, silly trunk) will still be there, so it is certainly possible that the Stang would still be chosen as the overall winner, as some rags have done with the Track Pack GT over an SS.
This is even worse than magazine racing, though, since the LSA Camaro is still just a figment of our imaginations at this point (at least from the factory).
02-09-2010, 02:16 PM
#34
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I love the CTS-V, but it is neither a Camaro nor a Mustang. Or a Mustang competitor. The CTS-V shares nothing with a theoretical LSA Camaro other than powertrain. An LSA Camaro would have similar power and torque to a GT500 but have to hump around an extra 300 pounds of mass. Simple math.
CTS-V like performance from an LSA Camaro would most certainly compete with the GT500.
Well, I'm not sure who is going to win all the comparisons, if there will even be a Z28, Track Pack for SS Camaro, etc. However, performance does not always equal sales. Just look at the SN95 Mustangs vs. the 4th Gen F-bodies in terms of performance and sales.
02-09-2010, 02:27 PM
#35
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Frankly, I think we need to look at this more closely, than just Mustang GT500 beating Z28, in performance.
Currently, the SS Camaro is selling WAY above the percentages that GM thought it would.............. or the percentages where the program makes CAFE sense. Thus, I am sure that the program is CAFE negative at this point. When you add in an even higher powered, heavier version........... this is going to make matters worse yet.
Plus, when you are majority owned by the government............. frankly, releasing a 550hp Pony Car does not make for good public relations. Especially when you count on environment groups as being in your voter demographic.
I would rarely bring the politics into this, or the government ownership. However, sometimes what it appears to be, is what it actually is. No more, and no less.
BTW, comparing a good handling and performing 4-door luxury car, to a 2-door Muscle car/Pony car, is ingenious at best. While the CTSV performs great, for a 4-door luxury car, it may not be so rosy for a 2-door Muscle Car/Pony Car. All 4-door luxury cars are heavy.............. and most of the performance versions perform very well. However, I would never want the feel of this type of vehicle, in my Mustang/Camaro. It is a completely different type of performance, that goes beyond straight performance numbers. While some vehicles may put up better handling numbers, they can feel like garbage doing so, when taken in the context of a different class of vehicle (meaning, how you expect a luxury car to feel is completely different to how you expect a Muscle Car/Pony car to feel).
I hope that made sense.
Currently, the SS Camaro is selling WAY above the percentages that GM thought it would.............. or the percentages where the program makes CAFE sense. Thus, I am sure that the program is CAFE negative at this point. When you add in an even higher powered, heavier version........... this is going to make matters worse yet.
Plus, when you are majority owned by the government............. frankly, releasing a 550hp Pony Car does not make for good public relations. Especially when you count on environment groups as being in your voter demographic.
I would rarely bring the politics into this, or the government ownership. However, sometimes what it appears to be, is what it actually is. No more, and no less.
BTW, comparing a good handling and performing 4-door luxury car, to a 2-door Muscle car/Pony car, is ingenious at best. While the CTSV performs great, for a 4-door luxury car, it may not be so rosy for a 2-door Muscle Car/Pony Car. All 4-door luxury cars are heavy.............. and most of the performance versions perform very well. However, I would never want the feel of this type of vehicle, in my Mustang/Camaro. It is a completely different type of performance, that goes beyond straight performance numbers. While some vehicles may put up better handling numbers, they can feel like garbage doing so, when taken in the context of a different class of vehicle (meaning, how you expect a luxury car to feel is completely different to how you expect a Muscle Car/Pony car to feel).
I hope that made sense.
02-09-2010, 03:04 PM
#37
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Frankly, I think we need to look at this more closely, than just Mustang GT500 beating Z28, in performance.
Currently, the SS Camaro is selling WAY above the percentages that GM thought it would.............. or the percentages where the program makes CAFE sense. Thus, I am sure that the program is CAFE negative at this point. When you add in an even higher powered, heavier version........... this is going to make matters worse yet.
Plus, when you are majority owned by the government............. frankly, releasing a 550hp Pony Car does not make for good public relations. Especially when you count on environment groups as being in your voter demographic.
I would rarely bring the politics into this, or the government ownership. However, sometimes what it appears to be, is what it actually is. No more, and no less.
BTW, comparing a good handling and performing 4-door luxury car, to a 2-door Muscle car/Pony car, is ingenious at best. While the CTSV performs great, for a 4-door luxury car, it may not be so rosy for a 2-door Muscle Car/Pony Car. All 4-door luxury cars are heavy.............. and most of the performance versions perform very well. However, I would never want the feel of this type of vehicle, in my Mustang/Camaro. It is a completely different type of performance, that goes beyond straight performance numbers. While some vehicles may put up better handling numbers, they can feel like garbage doing so, when taken in the context of a different class of vehicle (meaning, how you expect a luxury car to feel is completely different to how you expect a Muscle Car/Pony car to feel).
I hope that made sense.
Currently, the SS Camaro is selling WAY above the percentages that GM thought it would.............. or the percentages where the program makes CAFE sense. Thus, I am sure that the program is CAFE negative at this point. When you add in an even higher powered, heavier version........... this is going to make matters worse yet.
Plus, when you are majority owned by the government............. frankly, releasing a 550hp Pony Car does not make for good public relations. Especially when you count on environment groups as being in your voter demographic.
I would rarely bring the politics into this, or the government ownership. However, sometimes what it appears to be, is what it actually is. No more, and no less.
BTW, comparing a good handling and performing 4-door luxury car, to a 2-door Muscle car/Pony car, is ingenious at best. While the CTSV performs great, for a 4-door luxury car, it may not be so rosy for a 2-door Muscle Car/Pony Car. All 4-door luxury cars are heavy.............. and most of the performance versions perform very well. However, I would never want the feel of this type of vehicle, in my Mustang/Camaro. It is a completely different type of performance, that goes beyond straight performance numbers. While some vehicles may put up better handling numbers, they can feel like garbage doing so, when taken in the context of a different class of vehicle (meaning, how you expect a luxury car to feel is completely different to how you expect a Muscle Car/Pony car to feel).
I hope that made sense.
02-09-2010, 03:34 PM
#38
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Quite possible.
But I still say the LSA's horses seem to be a bit healthier, somehow, than the horses generated by the Mustang's 5.4L. The CTS-V has 300-400 lbs over the current GT500 (4300 lbs, vs 39xx). And the times I've seen for the CTS-V are as quick or quicker than the times I've seen for the Mustang. I think I've seen a low 12.x @ 119 mph for the six speed auto car. I wouldn't be so sure that an LSA Camaro would lose to a Mustang, at least when it comes to performance. Of course, the Camaro's other disadvantages (bad visibility and claustrophobic interior, more controversial interior styling / execution, silly trunk) will still be there, so it is certainly possible that the Stang would still be chosen as the overall winner, as some rags have done with the Track Pack GT over an SS.
This is even worse than magazine racing, though, since the LSA Camaro is still just a figment of our imaginations at this point (at least from the factory).
But I still say the LSA's horses seem to be a bit healthier, somehow, than the horses generated by the Mustang's 5.4L. The CTS-V has 300-400 lbs over the current GT500 (4300 lbs, vs 39xx). And the times I've seen for the CTS-V are as quick or quicker than the times I've seen for the Mustang. I think I've seen a low 12.x @ 119 mph for the six speed auto car. I wouldn't be so sure that an LSA Camaro would lose to a Mustang, at least when it comes to performance. Of course, the Camaro's other disadvantages (bad visibility and claustrophobic interior, more controversial interior styling / execution, silly trunk) will still be there, so it is certainly possible that the Stang would still be chosen as the overall winner, as some rags have done with the Track Pack GT over an SS.
This is even worse than magazine racing, though, since the LSA Camaro is still just a figment of our imaginations at this point (at least from the factory).
One other important point. The CTS-V is a glorious performance sedan, but it sure would make a **** poor Camaro. It's big and bulky and you never for a moment forget that. With that said though, and independent of power, the CTS-V simply destroys the Camaro SS when it comes to "feel" and dynamics. And that could be for lots of reasons. Sigma's superior front suspension, the CTS's MUCH better visibility, steering, steering wheel, etc., whatever.
The points being:
1)The CTS-V doesn't make a good Camaro.
2) Who says that an LSA Camaro would even be as good as a CTS-V?
02-09-2010, 03:52 PM
#39
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One other important point. The CTS-V is a glorious performance sedan, but it sure would make a **** poor Camaro. It's big and bulky and you never for a moment forget that. With that said though, and independent of power, the CTS-V simply destroys the Camaro SS when it comes to "feel" and dynamics. And that could be for lots of reasons. Sigma's superior front suspension, the CTS's MUCH better visibility, steering, steering wheel, etc., whatever.
2) I agree. I was just saying that if it COULD be, it would be competetive with some of the worlds best and would be a great car. I would hope that with all the R&D from the CTS-V, a LSA Z28 Camaro could perform as good. Maybe even better......
02-09-2010, 04:05 PM
#40
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~3600lbs is where I draw the line on heavy on an NA 2 door car.
I think everyone on here is accepting of a supercharger adding weight, it's the other things we have a problem with.
So I want to know what it weighs if you take the 5.4SC out and replace it with an ls3? If that gets it to 3600 then chevy has no excuses. Whatever the difference is, that's weight that needs to go.
I think everyone on here is accepting of a supercharger adding weight, it's the other things we have a problem with.
So I want to know what it weighs if you take the 5.4SC out and replace it with an ls3? If that gets it to 3600 then chevy has no excuses. Whatever the difference is, that's weight that needs to go.
02-09-2010, 04:06 PM
#41
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I agree with that. Lighter. Not light. Anyway, we agree that the CTS drives great. I know, I drive one every day.
As far as an LSA Z/28? GM will do what it's going to do. I'd doubt that they'll dynamite previously done work and start from scratch here. This will be GM's belated answer to the 2005 GT500. And...they'll sell them all.
For me, the possible up side is, that it'll set the Camaro model hierarchy for the next gen car, with the next set of marketing people.
As far as an LSA Z/28? GM will do what it's going to do. I'd doubt that they'll dynamite previously done work and start from scratch here. This will be GM's belated answer to the 2005 GT500. And...they'll sell them all.
For me, the possible up side is, that it'll set the Camaro model hierarchy for the next gen car, with the next set of marketing people.
02-09-2010, 04:37 PM
#42
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As far as an LSA Z/28? GM will do what it's going to do. I'd doubt that they'll dynamite previously done work and start from scratch here. This will be GM's belated answer to the 2005 GT500. And...they'll sell them all.
For me, the possible up side is, that it'll set the Camaro model hierarchy for the next gen car, with the next set of marketing people.
02-09-2010, 04:39 PM
#43
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Besides, a nose heavy Z/28 would still be much lighter at the front than a nose heavy GT500... by some 100 lbs, at least.
02-09-2010, 04:45 PM
#44
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If they produce it, to sell it at a loss, then they have learned nothing.
Also, if anyone honestly thinks that GM is going to come out with an LSA powered Camaro.......... whose engine is shared with a $60K car............. for under $40K, they are dreaming.
Also, if anyone honestly thinks that GM is going to come out with an LSA powered Camaro.......... whose engine is shared with a $60K car............. for under $40K, they are dreaming.
02-09-2010, 05:03 PM
#45
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What makes anyone believe that GM would undercut the car they want to compete with (GT500) by about 10 grand?