guionM

Well put, good points.

What's the best thing that we can say about GM products as a whole? As enthusiasts, we can only look to cars we can't afford as a group: Corvette and CTSv. GTOs have to be imported from a General Motors subsidiary.

What can we say about GM's bread & butter cars? Uh...... they have nice rebates. They have a nice navigation system. The GXP has a cool paddle shifter. But but thre's no cars like the '77 Caprice, the '78 Malibu or Grand Prix, or mid 90s Monte Carlo. I'm not talking SS or top performance models, just nice cars that people bought because they actually liked the cars.

uluz28

You guys can belittle the GP all you want, but that is about the most enthusiast-like sedan in its price range that you are going to find. The interior is nice, the styling has character, and the performance is very good.

BigDarknFast

Thank You. And AMEN to that.

BigDarknFast

Since when is it wrong or bad to leave the dealer in your new car, convinced you got the best deal you possibly could? To me it's comforting to know I got at least the same level of discount most other buyers did... and widely publicized rebates facilitate this for the average buyer. As for getting a quality product... I've got other ways for evaluating that besides a red tag. Things like perfect paint, a smooth torquey, powerful engine and a quiet rattle-free ride like on my 2005 Prix. Rebates work - - and it's not just GM using them (Ford and DCX also do). Imports use them less because they want instead to have a low price image.

Not all GM vehicles have rebates for that matter. The 05 H2, CTS-V, GTO, XLR, and STS have none for example.

Seems reasonable to me, to challenge anyone coming here to bash the CTS-V and C6, if they are driving around in an economy car. It's reasonable to ask - are you an enthusiast, or just another commuter? GM does in fact have cars right now for the enthusiast on a budget, great cars, IMHO, like the Saturn RedLine Ion quad coupe for $20k and some change. If $20k is too much for you, and I don't mean this personally ( ) but maybe you should look for a used performance car - or you can settle for an econobox like you did. Sorry. But the Scion TC is boxy (therefore -box) and sells for about $16k with limited features and VERY limited performance (therefore econo-).
Now isn't that strange... NO rebates available even on the 04 SSR, according to www.gmbuypower.com ? I'd have thought there would be massive rebates according to your logic. I don't see many SSR's either. I did see one in Frankenmuth MI a couple months ago. It's proud owner was having his picture taken beside it at a restaurant. The group stood around it for several minutes, chatting and having some fun. That's what it's about you know (or do you?). They seemed ecstatic about their new Chevy. Sorry, I know that bothers some here
You already did! It's a bit of a stretch to believe you will be back when the new Camaro comes back, with your attitude toward GM. My 05 CompG (which I am proud to say was significantly discounted to get me to sign!) is definitely an awesome car. It's loaded with torque, hi-tech and luxury features, and space for five. Too bad for you, you can't see the beauty in that. Hope you enjoy your car.
I make no pretenses about being fair. I'm a GM fan and have stated it many times. I don't know much about Aston Martins... but recall your priority on cars the 'average guy' can own. Would that include Aston Martins and Jaguars now? I've not referenced Opel at all. My only reference to Holden may have been oblique in its association with the GTO. I do recall Volvo has a reasonably good performance sedan, the S60... but am I supposed to get excited about that 3900 lb behemoth, with a whopping 208 hp, for a whopping $30k? The one which edmunds.com complains about having torque steer (on the AWD version ) and turbo lag? Hmm. BTW where's Mercury's line of performance cars like the Cougar Eliminator of yore? HmmM?

BigDarknFast

Foo. The G6, Cobalt and Lacrosse are three new cars that will likely be good successes for example. And if buyers didn't like the Impala... why have they bought ONE MILLION of them in the last five years??? Some kind of hypnotic Super Bowl ad, or what?

Flash Alert! GM's compact and midsize cars are loaded with innovations and value! Like the remote start option on my 05 Prix and many other models. Like the widely available XM radio. Like the 5-star crashworthiness on the Impala. Yes, GM is doing it right. Their market share will turn around when it becomes clear to buyers the imports no longer have a monopoly on quality or cost.

Bob Cosby

Just one minor note....the GTO does indeed have a rebate - to the tune of $5500.

Of course, I'm talking 04s (lot of em still left), as the 05 is not available for sale yet.

BigDarknFast

Sorry about my grammar there -- meant to say, of the 2005 models listed, none of those models has a rebate. Yes the 04 GTO has a rebate... which IMHO makes it a great performance bargain.

MunchE

And those are the few cars that GM has made that can appeal to people without paying them to take it. Now if they can get some appeal on their cars that aren't $50,000 (the '05 GTO isn't even out yet, of course there aren't any rebates) then maybe they won't have to keep paying ppl to buy their cars.

I never bashed CTS-V or C6. They're great cars for the $50,000 segment. I've said that several times in this thread.

Have you ever seen a Scion tC? You may or may not like the looks of it, but it's not really a boxy car, you're probably thinking of the Scion xB. You do realize that Scion has 3 cars under the brand now, right?

Limited features...panoramic sunroof, nice 17" wheels that actually aren't ugly, factory Pioneer stereo system, 5 speed, power whatnots, cruise, most of your standard stuff. I'm not into gimmicky crap like heads up displays or paddle shifters. I'll take a real manual transmission, thanks. What exactly is the car missing? Leather? DVD Nav? This is a $16,000 car, of course it doesn't have any of that. It comes pretty decked out for it's base price. Options are stuff like aftermarket exhaust, cold air intakes, supercharger, lowering springs, sway bars, strut brace, and visual stuff like lip spoilers, body kits, larger (18"+) wheels. I didn't feel limited in my options at all.

As for "VERY limited performance"? It's no speed demon, never claimed it to be. In it's class, it's near the top. 160hp 163tq out of a 2.4L 4cyl.

2005 Scion tC:

http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/fe...0411scc_scion/


0-60 mph: 7.8 sec. Quarter-Mile Time: 15.7 sec

Overall, there's little doubt the Scion tC offers decent bang for the buck. For those who don't eat, breathe and **** high performance, it's a very good entry-level commuter as it sits. And for those who do, but don't have tons of cash to spend, the availability of a comprehensive, factory-supported aftermarket performance program makes it a great entry-level pocket hot rod. Scion has officially joined the hot hatch market.


2005 Saturn Ion Redline:

http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/ro...ine/index.html

We managed 0-to-60 mph in 7.1 seconds and the quarter mile in 15.3 at 94.5 mph

Bottom line, the ION Red Line is not our favorite, but it's not the worst, either. We'd rather drive it any day over a Honda Civic Si. Maybe our hopes were set too high. After all, last year Dodge gave us the SRT-4 and built the quickest car in the market for the money. Ruess says the Chevrolet Cobalt SS, which is based on the same chassis as the Red Line and will be powered by the same engine, will be more to our liking.


So, for a base MSRP of $5000 more, I can get a car that's a slightly faster 0-60 and in the 1/4, with dodgy quality and wierd center mounted gauges? No thanks. Not to mention there's a dealer installed TRD supercharger for the tC which will boost the HP to 200+ and keep your warranty intact, if I was so inclined. Which I'm not. I bought an economy car because I have an 80 mile commute to work, and I wanted a car that would be reasonably attractive and fun to drive while giving me decent economy and reliability. When I was initially shopping, I was looking at more expensive options, like the Mach 1, Magnum RT and Subaru WRX and Legacy GT, but decided to opt down so I'd have more money to spend on restoring my classic, since that's my real love. No sense in spending a ton on a daily driver when I'm going to drive it into the ground.


Maybe if they put rebates on them they'd move. What was that article posted? Over 180 day supply of SSRs? I've read articles about dealers who got SSRs and have them just taking up space for months on end. I'm happy for those who like their car, obviously not many people are liking the SSR enough to buy it.

I'll go to whoever can make me the best car for the money. I'd love to see GM make a better car. I have a bias towards domestic brands, and I'd like to see them make a better car. Unfortunately that isn't the case at the moment.

I was exagerating when I mentioned Opel, it was just a point I was making. It wasn't even really directed at you, other people will throw the "what does Ford have?" card without including brands that have a lot of sporty affordable options, like Mazda.

Same place as the Buick GS and Grand National, I assume?

smackkk

Mazda is not wholly owned by Ford, just a 33% share. Its also an import with cars built in the US just like Toyota. I own a nice sporty Mazda 6 and love the Mazda 3 but I wouldnt consider them Ford products.

MunchE

http://www.ford.com/en/default.htm

Quick look there shows Mazda as a brand under the Ford label. I also got a discount on Mazdas with Ford's discount plan.

smackkk

I used the Ford plan also, but Ford is still only a 33% investor. Really though, when is the last time somebody used mazda as a defense of Ford products?

BigDarknFast

GM has a 20% stake in Subaru... can we claim the wonderful WRX STi is a GM product?

smackkk

Ford doesnt even include mazda sales when figuring market share. I think Renault owns a 44% share of Nissan as well but they arent considered the same company.

BigDarknFast

I'll grant that GM is a little too dependent on rebates. But it's made cars available for a bunch of buyers whom otherwise could not have made the upgrade. I'm happy with the price I paid and regardless of what I wanted or desired, I likely would not have been able to afford the car I got without some incentives.
Fine. But you criticized them indirectly nonetheless by implying they are unaffordable. So is the Ford GT by most people's standards...
I've seen pix of the TC. Yep, boxy. I cannot easily tell which end is the front either. Just my opinion on the looks though... there are worse looking cars out there. As for the features - I made a valiant but doomed attempt to equip one like my GTP (yes I realize the two cars are in a different class) on edmunds.com. Even after adding XM ($695! ) and side airbags ($650! ) and some other doodads - bringing the street price to $21,856 - the car was still missing leather and the like. Oh Well. It's nice you can get a dealer-installed s/c from TRD... how many kilodollars does that set you back? It comes STOCK on the Cobalt SS. And as for the Saturn comparison... the Scion will NEVER offer the innovative doorlets found on it.

guionM

All of what you point out are exactly my points.

1) The Impala sells for 2 reasons, it's level of equptment or value, and the bag of money GM's paying people to buy them.

2) You are arguing in favor of GM's compact & midsize because of XM radio, remote start, etc, not because they are great looking cars, or something that you particularly want independent of the add ins.

Again, you just hammered home my entire point. While GM may be focused on "Halo" cars and performance cars, what about putting some of that into their bread & butter cars. Chrysler has shown it can still be done, just like before the SUV and Truck craze.

If you look at Grand Prix buyers, they bought the car mainly because they actually liked the car beforehand. The same for the Chrysler 300, & the new Mustang. Actually wanting a car independent of the size of the rebate or what's being given away if you buy one isn't a phenomenon limited to a small group of performance cars or to enthusiasts. Regular cars and the general public were, and obviously still are into good designs.

Ford made the same mistake (ie: the FiveHundred), which they are starting to fix. But I'm not completly sure GM quite understands this. You have to make people say to themselves:
"My car's getting old & I really like the new 'so-and-so'." or
"I wasn't planning to get a new car for awhile, but that new 'such-and-such' is so good looking, I'm really tempted to get one!"
Not "Wow! I can get $5,000 cash back, a free XM radio, and a free navigation system if I get the 'whatever' before the 30th".

One is going to cost GM extra money, the other isn't. One is bribing people to buy your car, the other is getting people to want your car. It's just safer to put out a bland design and add incentives as necessary instead of taking a chance with a good design.

People want a Corvette, a GTO, & a CTS before they even get into the showrooms. People used to feel the same way about Caprices, Malibus, Regals, even Berettas. Heck, even 1st generation Neons were "Gotta have" cars, for goodness sake. Chrysler had a bad quality reputation, and people still bought Neons in droves, from young tuners and weekend racers to my mom!

At K-Mart, if it's on sale or you get something free with it, it sells, not because people desire K-Mart stuff. But people actually want something from Macys.

That's the difference.