Since when did 300hp for $30k become this magic yardstick? Maybe in your mind, but other features matter to me too such as torque. For that matter, the 04 GTO meets your arcane criteria with 350 hp and ~$25k street price. Impala not competitive? How'd they manage to sell ONE MILLION Impalas since 1999?
If you have no money for these cars, perhaps you should stick with your econobox Scion. However that does nothing to refute that they are great performance values when compared to their competition.
I've made no attempt to provide an exhaustive list for your inspection. So I left out the 390HP SSR, the XLR, STS, G6 GT, Saab 9-3 and so on. Though I doubt it would make much difference to the Choir of GM Cynics
Why would you pay sticker, indeed? Especially when edmunds.com has the true street price for an Impala SS at $25k??? (The Magnum RT, meanwhile, is at $29,843). Some deal for the Magnum buyer, yay! Not. And don't mention 'fresh styling' and 'Accord' in the same sentence. Is there ANYTHING unique to make an Accord stand out in a mall parking lot full of other anonymous silver sedans? Nope. MazdaSpeed6 - nice concept (ought to be for $30k). Hope they improve their quality before the release.
Wrong. Wrong, when the C5 came out and there was NOTHING in its price class offering the same performance per dollar from Ford or DCX. Wrong when the 1997 Grand Prix GTP came out and stood the affordable midsize performance sedan market on its ear. Wrong when the LS1 got plopped into the 1998 Camaro Z28, quite possibly the best RWD V8 performance value of all time. Wrong when GM improvised via global resources and brought the 350hp GTO to our shores in record time, with a corresponding quick turn already in the pipeline in the form of the 400hp GTO on the way for 2005. Wrong all the way to second place at the strip for so many Mustang owners!

 

If you're talking about a Mustang GT....power to weight will be similar, but the blown Kappas will eat the Mustang on a road course.

 

What interest does a Ford fan have in gm's future plans? You are interested in all cars, perhaps, but Fords in particular, I believe.

I wouldn't get all up about talking market share and mention Ford in the same breath. Ford has problems whether you choose to see them or not.

SVT fans are riding on faith which may or may not be well placed. If it's well placed or not will be seen soon enough.

For drag racing fans who don't have a serious wad of cash, Ford has little to offer right now in the realm of "seriously" quick. Might be coming, but the new Mustangs are not anywhere near the previous generation's Cobra SC'ed car was for sraightline performance.

I'm figuring Coletti is out and SVT is not a front burner issue right for Ford now as Shelby is the next direction Ford intends to go with on a performance line marketing deal. Let's see if it's a big deal or not.

I hope it's more impressive than CS's stint with Chrysler.

I figure Carroll came out of his association with the Ann Arbor crew a bit short of his mid to late sixty's exploits with the Dearborn group when he had a wad of Ford's cash in his pocket. I will agree he made the most of a particular place and time. So did Jim Hall in the same era...

I hope we may expect more than blue cars with wide white stripes from the effort that is coming from Ford.

 

I like Ford, no secret there. I happen to like *some* former and current GM products like the Colorado, Z06, GTO, etc...So yes, I'm interested in all cars. BTW, just sold my WRX I had to buy a SUV or truck and it was seriously between the Colorado and Mariner. The Mariner won. Mostly because my wife, in the long run, wanted a small, but roomy vehicle that was safe. The Mariner fit the bill and I got over $4000 off the sticker. Hard to pass up a deal like that. Heated leather seats, 6 disc Mach stereo, complete air bag system that actually inflates in the back seats also, decent mileage and it looks sharp, especially with that huge moon roof. Depending on what happens in the next 3 years, I hope to be in a c6 z06 or Mach1 or Cobra...but who knows 3 years down the road what will happen?

No doubt Ford is having issues. But I've seen a lot of what they're going to put out over the next few years and I think it's really going to help. Bill Ford seems to really care how well the company does and wants to give it a good image (GT40, Mustang, etc...). The commercials they're producing are well liked by everyone. I've seen few people, very few people, complain about them.

Unlike the Camaro crowd, the Ford crowd has evidence. Hard, tangible evidence that is readily available to the public. I have no worries about SVT.

GM's seriously quick comes with serious sticker shock. While Ford has little, they have THE fastest production vehicle in the world right now. The Mustang is just now out, it will improve, I have no doubts about that. That Ford is even paying attention to the Mustang crowd unlike others is a very good thing. I can promise you that you'll be seeing more performance out of Ford in the next two to three years, a little birdy told me so.

The Mustang's chief engineer is in charge of SVT now. He's a Mustang guy through and through. I think SVT is in good hands, but they have a lot of work ahead of them. I still don't know what to make of the Shelby deal. I think we'll be finding out soon. I don't think it will be affordable, but I hope I'm wrong.

 

No but making a homerun Camaro that gets people interested in the company again MIGHT get them into the showrooms to buy those improved cars. I was reading in the paper today about Chrysler's turn around and how up their overall sales are and how the C has pulled in a lot more foot traffic. I dunno I think it's worth at least a shot.

Of all those performance cars that were listed to be in the GM stable I just don't get a feeling many of them are really hotly anticipated. This is just my opinion of course but if the Camaro came out I think you'd see a sizeable spike in GMs overall sales as people would have something obtainable to go look at. They might come in to drool over the new Camaro but might decide that it's not for them for a certain reason but might jump into that Monte or that Cobalt. Seems to be working for Chrysler at least.

 

For all the talk about what GM does or doesnt have..what is it that Ford has in 05 for performance? The Mustang Gt, thats it, unless you are one of the handful of people that can afford a $150k car.

Focus..not
Mustang GT..we'll give ya this one
Taurus...no
Five Hundred..no
Freestar...nope
Crown Vic...nope
Freestar...nope
Thunderbird...wanna talk about half done and way overpriced.
GT, nice car, but who realistically can buy one?

Lincoln has the LS which is ok and Mercury HAD the Marauder which was cool, but yet underdone as well

 

Studies show, that Camaro people are far more brand loyal than, oh say, Corvette people. We don't live in a world of one car families anymore...we live in a world of 2,3,4 or more vehicle families.

The guy who buys a new Camaro, will usually also have a sedan or truck or an SUV....or even some or all of those. Get that loyal buyer into a Camaro...and you're more likely to also sell a Tahoe or Avalanche.

Get that same guy into a Mustang or 350Z....and his "peripheral" vehicle buying habits may also change.

 

Every single SVT fan on the planet and most all Ford performance fans are aware of what's in store for SVT. Even a few big fans of American muscle from all brands knows what's going on at SVT. In case there are those who don't know, here it is in black & white from multiple press sources including Ford itself:


"Ford Division, planning to take the SVT performance brand to a more premium position, will drop the SVT Focus after the 2004 model year, the company says.

Dropping the car is part of an overhaul of the SVT lineup. No SVT models, including the SVT F-150 Lightning and the SVT Mustang Cobra, will be produced for about 18 months starting in the spring. "



"Ford Motor Co. will take its SVT high-performance brand upscale and drop the SVT Focus.

The demise of the SVT Focus is part of Ford Motor's revision of its performance strategy. The company will create a performance series for the Ford brand and likely will add a high-performance Lincoln SUV and a supercharged Mercury sedan.

"I want to see product and performance across the range," said Phil Martens, group vice president of product creation for North America, at a press event here last month.

The Ford Performance Group, formed in September 2002, is directing the strategy. The group develops performance vehicles and handles performance parts and services for Ford, Lincoln and Mercury.

Martens said the group will concentrate on three vehicle types beginning in the 2005 model year.

1. High-end vehicles, including the two-passenger 2005 Ford GT and the Ford brand's limited-edition SVT models.

2. Turbocharged and supercharged vehicles.

3. Mainstream performance, including the new ST label for the Ford brand's high-volume performance vehicles below SVT.

With the SVT brand going to a more premium position, the low-end Focus no longer fits. Production of the 2004 SVT Focus will end in the spring. Ford sells about 5,500 SVT Focus models annually.

"We are moving SVT upmarket in terms of performance, content, craftsmanship," said Tom Scarpello, SVT marketing and sales manager. "And obviously, going along with that will be price."

... the SVT Lightning and the Mustang SVT Cobra, also end production in the spring, leaving dealers with an 18-month gap until new models arrive.

...Ford Division is creating high-performance models by using previous-generation SVT engines. For example, the Mustang Mach 1 is equipped with the previous-generation Cobra V-8. The Lightning V-8 also is used in the Harley-Davidson Edition F-150.

John Coletti, director of Ford Special Vehicle Team Programs, wants to do the same thing at Lincoln Mercury.

Coletti said 65 percent of the cost of developing an SVT vehicle is the powertrain - emissions, packaging, hardware and other considerations.

"We are being forced to go up to a much higher level, and what is left behind is a boost for the mainstream products," Coletti said. "It makes sense to trickle that stuff down."

...Turbocharging and supercharging also are expected to have a wider role in the automaker's powertrains.

A turbocharged 200-hp, 2.0-liter four-cylinder engine soon will be approved for the 2005 or 2006 Focus. If produced, it would be a mass-market engine, available to all Ford dealers. The SVT Focus is available only to qualified SVT dealerships.

With the decision to drop the SVT Focus, Focus owners are being targeted with performance parts and accessories authorized by the Ford Performance Group.

Martens said the ST designation will be used where appropriate. The mid-sized Futura sedan, due in 2005, is a likely candidate, possibly with all-wheel drive. He said the Taurus is not a candidate"

 

Yes, well the Halo effect. That still doesnt stop some one from going out of a Camry and into a Camaro. Toyota seems to do well without a halo car. The halo is having this rep of making an unstoppable and unbreakable car.
And Camaro owners being loyal? There 400 threads on this section alone talking about Camaro owners that wont buy another GM product, and buying a Mustang.
So I dont buy that thought either. GM needs to make better bread and butter cars FIRST, then bring the Camaro.

 

Regarding those 400 threads.....ummmm.....we're still here aren't we. Maybe there's plenty of bitching and moaning....and honestly, there should be...but we're not posting on CamryLE.com...are we.

I agree about the bread and butter cars. But I've been hearing that same tired, old, monotoned song, since you were barely old enough to tell the difference between the brown crayola and the blue crayola.

Just give us our freakin' car already.

 

I was waiting for this response. This is exactly the problem. Even you, the resident GM fan, will clearly say that GM's cars aren't worth the price that they sticker them at. So basically, the only way even you would buy a GM is with huge rebates. A customer getting something with a huge rebate isn't going to feel like they got a quality product. They're going to feel like they just got the club card discount at their local grocer. That's not a good way to leave consumers feeling about their cars.

The personal jab at my choice in cars was uncalled for, but whatever. Hardly any of us on here can afford the $50k CTS-V or C6 Corvette, so no matter how cool they are, it doesn't really matter. If I wanted to spend $50k+, there would be a lot of great options for me from a lot of great manufacturers. I thought that GM cars were supposed to be great cars that the average guy could buy? It's great that GM is appealing to the too much money market, but I wish they'd make a good offering into the market where most of us live, down around $20-30k for a car. This is a Camaro fansite, not a Caddilac or a Corvette fansite. The CTS-V and the Corvette are great, and out of reach tot he majority of us fans. The SSR is a hunk of crap and is selling accordingly. Now it's a hunk of crap with 100 more horsepower, woohoo. I've seen one on the streets. I've seen more Bentleys driving around than I have SSRs.

Maybe some of you are satisfied with GM putting out mediocre crap in the markets where the average guy lives. That's fun, but I remember this car company used to be awesome. Maybe it's been a while, and maybe it's naive to think that they'll ever get there again. But don't try and feed me the crap that GM is spewing out now and tell me it's great. I'm not going to settle for a bunch of gimmicks like an autostick with paddles on the steering wheel. I want a good car. Or I'll go buy it from someone else.

Btw, while you selectively quoted my post, you neglected to tell me why any of those cars are better options than their competition.

Also, why is it on this site, that GM includes Chevy, Pontiac, GMC, Buick, Saab, Caddy, Holden, Opel, and the Ford side is only Ford, maybe Mercury or Lincoln if you're feeling generous? What about Mazda, Volvo, Aston Martin, Jaguar? At least be fair, here.

 

ok, i didn't know that was what was up with SVT. but its really smart actaully. i am guessing they will do it like mercedes does AMG. except if Ford can do it with good advertising, when you tell someone you got a new car, they will ask if you got the SVT package. i guess GM is sort of doing something similar by doing the SS line.

 

I dont see many people comparing Opels and Holdens when it comes to GM comparing to Ford. They mainly mention them when mentioning what cars they like and would like some form brought to the US. Mainly domestic brands are considered when comparing GM vs Ford.

 

What does Chevy have to offer for drag racing fans? Vette is about it.

 

Yes I understand that but it is going to take a much much longer amount of time to break the preconceived notion of the general populace that Japanese > American than it would to get a Camaro to market to utilize it. Chevy isn't blind they are doing this with the C6 to help push the Cobalt the only problem is there a fewer people who can afford a Vette so the likelyhood of a person getting off their couch into a showroom to go look at a car they can't afford is minimal. Which is what Ford kind of did wrong with the GT. Awesome car but few are going to go down to the showroom to look at a car they can't afford, but at least the GT has supercar rarity going for it. The Vette not so much.

The Camaro would give Chevy an affordable halo car in the V6 model and a hot performer that will bring in other non-brand loyal people. That guy who is loving his Camaro in two years might see the need for a family car or a truck and if the Camaro is done well enough...they likely would go back to Chevy. That's workable. But producing a lot of product nobody is interested in and basically combating a cultural bias with nothing to shake up the masses so to speak will be a long and ardueous process.