This, generally, is true.

I'll never forget the day I went over my friends house, and her grandmother was there.

My 99 Z28 was already parked, just sitting there... she accusingly points at it, looks at me, and says "That thing uses too much gas!"

Just out of nowhere!

 

Z284ever has a point. I haven't read every single post, but I don't think he's refering to you personaly, Darth.

Me? I wish I could've seen more. Being born in '76 I didn't pay much attention till later. My first experience that I remember with the F car would be my Mom's '67, but that was sold in '80 or so. Heck I didn't even drive a Camaro till '98 . But, I was sold on my first drive! And that was the V6 too....Learned a lot since then though.

There are a fair amount of people that are similar to me in that we got in the game during the 4th gen. Cars in general have improved immensly in 10 years, not to mention 20. Like anything else you have to judge an older camaro with reference to the environment it was operating in. To say that F-bodies had an impact in the U.S. culteraly is an understatement and a testament to what they accomplished. The 5th gen should be held to the same standard in today's world, if not in '78 sales numbers, but in the quality and performance and presence of the car.

That alone would help eliminate any preconcieved negative notions.

 

Oh, I know... I am just using myself as an example.

I'm just not getting the point. If the point is that you havd to live through all the generations... at driving age... to be able top appreciate everything Camaro is, well, Camaro is dead for sure.

Why? Because most (note I did not say all) of these people would not even be in the market for this type of car anymore.

 

When I was 6 years old, in the fall of 1966, I saw my first Camaro. I thought it was really neat car......but I really had no idea on what people actually thought of them.

By the time I had reached driving age in the mid -70's I knew. Getting back to the message of the thread...Z/28's and Trans Ams were king....but lots of other people bought F-cars besides those two. Not simply because they couldn't afford the top models...bt because different models actually appealed to them....AND THEY WANTED THEM.

From a different perspective...you (not you personally), may look back on a mid to late '70s Type LT or Firebird Esprit...and say who would want that?

But if you were there...you'd know plenty of people wanted them..and if you had a TransAm or Z/28....you didn't look down on them....they were different cars for different people. And LOTS of people plunked down money to buy them.......BECAUSE THEY WANTED THEM.

 

You're right....I have no idea about what you're talking about.


Boy...that sure is an assumption . I think Camaro has a bad image to some for a whole host of reasons. I certailny don't think it's the "rusting fleet of 3rd gens" that is completely to blame.

I'll go even further....the 3rd gens...especially during the first half of that generation....had a somewhat upscale stereotype to them.
They weren't cheap...by any means. And not everyone could afford them.....but somehow they sold in great numbers. Any idea why? Because people WANTED them and were sometimes willing to "stretch" to get them.




Excuse me. I'm living in the present. In fact I am responding to your ridiculous statement...RIGHT NOW!

My eye is always on the future....but I have more past experieces than you do...which help give me meaningful reference points.


What are your reference points?

As far as realities go....I have a pretty good idea where your "realities" get influenced from. Be your own man, formula, you're a smart guy,I know that you're better than that.

 

Does age or experience with "Camaro" make one person a more knowledgeable enthusiast over anyone else? Seriously, does anyone here have more knowledge of or experience with the "Camaro" than Red Planet? (I doubt it.)

I fell in love with "Camaro" at the impressionable age of 13. It was my football coach's 1968 RS/SS 396 Coupe. Black/on Black with a vinyl top and 4 speed. After riding in that thing.... I wanted one.

My parents made me buy my first car with my own money. I had to be able to afford the insurance as well. I couldn't find a Camaro I liked and could afford, so I bought a 67 Chevelle from a friend that was dirt cheap.

After the Chevelle was wrecked (rearend by uninsured driver), I finally had enough money to by my first Camaro, a 68 RS.

That car lasted through college. I started to restore it after I graduated and had another car as my daily driver. But I grew tired of the project after 18 months and my little brother needed a car, so I sold it to him cheap.

I've owned, driven or rode in several Camaros over the years:

67 RS (currently own)
68 RS (owned and sold)
69 Z/28 (Friend's)
70-1/2 Z/28-RS (Friend's)
73 Camaro V8 (Brother's)
76 Camaro V8 (Friend's)
78 Z/28 (Cousin's)
80 Z/28 (Friend's)
86 IROC (Friend's)
95 Z/28 (currently own)

I've also been in and around several other cars that fit in the same category (i.e. Mustangs, Chevelles, Trans Ams, GTOs, Cudas, Corvettes, etc.) and some imports (Z's, Supras, Porsches, etc.); however, I've always stayed true in my heart to Camaro.

I love all four generations of Camaros. While I have a huge soft spot for 1st Gens, I would never give up my 95 Z/28 until there's a suitable replacement available. The old cars just aren't as refined as the new ones.

I have long advocated what I expect from the 5th Gen Camaro, is for it to be evolutionary (not revolutionary and not retro) and continue the tradition that goes back over 40 years (by the time it returns).

I want folks with a similar appreciation and history as mine to be making the decisions on what that new "Camaro" will be. I trust that Red Planet is one of those people. I don't want someone that dislikes or disrespects Camaro Generations other than their own, involved in the process. Hate 4th gens? I don't want your opinion. Loath 3rd Gens? See ya. No flavor for 2nd Gens? Adios muchacho. No love for the 1st Gens? Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

All this arguing and bickering over which generation the 5th Generation should be modeled after are about as pointless as the whole Z/28 v. SS debate. So what if you grew up during the IROC era and those were the most impressionable on you. I grew up during the 70's and you don't see me clamoring for a modern day '79 Z/28. (Even though they were cool. )

The 5th Generation should stand on its own in the evolution of Camaro, yet it should still follow the basic fundemental formula that has made Camaro successful, and kept Camaro enthusiasts loyal over the years. Above and beyond anything else, it should say "Camaro" and be recognizable as such from the moment it hits the streets and the showroom floor.



So let's end the arguing and get to work.

 

What was the mean age of the person that participated in the "market research" of which you speak?
Were these Americans or Germans?
Were they male, female, or "other"?
Were they high school gradutes or PhD's?
Did they earn $7/hr flippin burgers or $120k/yr at a legal firm?
Did they ever dance in clubs or did they slop the hogs?
Were they spanked as children, or given "time-out"?
Shall I go on?

If the market study was done on a crowd of people whose median age was 32, I'd EXPECT the '85 IROC to be the big hit, because they would have all been 16, they'd have all been cruising boulevards on Friday and Saturday nights in the coolest cars they could be in (their's or a friends), and NEW IROCs and NEW Mustang GT's were THE cars to be in back then - everything else was an "also ran". Every 16 y/o guy wanted to have an IROC or GT, and the girls wanted convertibles and 4-bangers, it's that simple. They were everywhere - zillions of them it seemed. I saw them at the dragstrip, the mall, "Mickey-D's" , the water park, you name it.

And back then (I assure you, I was there) the Camaro DID NOT have the mullet syndrome it suffers from now. That's not to blame it on the F4's at all, it stems more from the fact that the zillions of popular F3's ended up behind trailers and in trailer park driveways because there were so many on the used car market, that the prices plummeted making them affordable to lower income guys (mullet heads and trailer trash fall into the "lower income" zone where I live). So 8-zillion cool new Camaros in the mid-'80's ended up being 4-zillion Camaros in trailer parks during the '90's - hence the mullet syndrome.

So IMO, the mullet syndrome we speak of is actually a product of stereotyping by the younger generations. MY generation and older DO NOT, and WILL NOT view ANY Camaro as trailer trash ('85 or not) - because we were there when the cars were new! We know WHY the cars were bought by the boat-load. They had APPEAL... to the masses.

My first ride in a Camaro was in a brown Berlinetta (an '83 I think) powered by the Iron Duke, auto, and with cream-colored interior/black trim. Belonged to a girl. We cruised Stratford road for a while, then got into my '81 Mustang coupe and cruised some more. We looked g o o o d in those cars.

I don't mean this to pick on you or flame you or your thoughts IN ANY WAY. I'm just trying to point out that being there DOES make a difference, and a simple study or marketing tool is only as good as who did it and why. Suppose I am a time traveler, and I take your study back to 1988... I publish your report that most people chose the '85 IROC as the definition of "Camaro". Everyone would be like "Duh! - of course it is!", because BACK THEN, it was one of the fastest, best-handling, attractive, value-packed cars on the road. There was no "mullet syndrome" or negative impressions about it back then (at least not like we make out now).

What we SHOULD DO, is look at the recipe for the cars as they were offered back then, because they SOLD LIKE HOTCAKES. The recipe obviously worked. Then design and update the new car to emulate the old variations (read as trim levels and/or packages) but include what we have learned since then - like E-coating the unibody for corrosion protection, paints and finishes, material selections, powertrain improvements, fuel efficiency, etc. Then present a NEW CAMARO that has the best of both worlds! It must be appealing to everyone from 16 y/o girls to men in mid-life crises, it must bring VALUE foremost, and have a sufficient quality standard to be on par with other current offerings.
It's really not that hard of a concept to grasp.

 

I think you need to make yourself a better pair of glasses because your points reference jade you, they don't help you.

Quote:

What are your reference points?

As far as realities go....I have a pretty good idea where your "realities" get influenced from. Be your own man, formula, you're a smart guy,I know that you're better than that.

I am 22, I have owned 4 F-bodies and only had my license since I was 17. I am the buyer that GM or any maker wants...not some middle aged nostalgist. I understand what the F-body used to be and appritiate that. But I also know making cars is a business and and things have to change to survive. You can talk all you want about who I know and how I get my beliefs that is your right. I also know you are old, set in you beliefs and won't change...that is just how old people are.

 

Wow! If you actually believe that us "old" folks cannot change and are set in our ways, then you my friend are both immature and a hypocrite. That narrow-minded stereotyping of "older" people being inflexible and resistant to change is exactly what you are doing right now.

You're 22 years old and still wet behind the years. Try marriage, raising your own kids, paying a morgage, and paying for your kid's college tuition before you try passing yourself as an expert on life.

In other words, GROW UP!

 

The marketing study was conducted my GM and had prople from all walks of life...I am sure someone else has the more complete info...if they can share it. People thought that stonewashed jeans, big hair, and Millie Vanilli were cool in the same time frame as the Third Gen...yet no one thinks they are cool now and looks down on them. Nothing stays in style forever, and teh Camaro is no exeception. In the end the third gens shortcomings have hurt it because it left a wealth of areas for people the pick at. Odd are your average person has had more contact with a third gen also.


In closing on this thread for me....GM needs not to make the Camaro like it once was to be a success, but instead find a way to redefine the name and the image associated with it.

 

I never thought Milli Vanilli were cool.

 

I am only speaking from my experiance....but just for example...how many people in the older crowd have come out and said that the Camaro needs to change and mover forward to succed....no one! In said it's "Well Z28 used to" "and SS used to"...that is not change, that is trying to make things like they were in the past. Why? Because it is what you know and what it comfortable...and it is not risky (even if it's whats needed), it is not change!

And I did not say that aimed at everyone....more at Z284Ever.

I am not even going to respond to your other insults....as it is pointless because you already have it in your head you are right. If I need to let you think that i will

 

Did you even read what I wrote, just prior to your "insulting" response above?

Insult? Because I said you're wet behind the ears? You've pretty much proven that as fact by your own admission.

 

VERY well said!!! Guys and gals, we're all on the same team here. There is no need to take constant pot shots at other members (or other f-bodies!) just because you don't completely agree with their views. It is possible to have productive discussions and share views without getting nasty and questioning how much of a Camaro enthusiast someone is. I know that it's human nature to think that your own opinion is the right one and that's fine, but can we at least try to present opinions in a civil manner? I miss the productive conversations, and loathe the current daily flamewars. What type of message are we sending to gm types who are reading this board? We all have more class than this.....


-Mike

 

Mike I couldn't agree more. Since we're in agreement that must mean that you're an "old" fart like me.