I have stayed out of this for days now, but I can't take it any more. I am leaving for China in a few weeks to go start up a new plant there - will be there 5 weeks. I'm NOT thrilled about it either. But this project makes me VERY astute to these issues right now. That said...

I will not argue pro or con about the "buy American" statement, but instead I want to address this concept of "globalism" that many of you are using so gallantly.

It's great. It's wonderful. It's what's "in". It makes companies more profitable. It brings better returns to investors. Yadda yadda yadda.

Let's look at another side of this "globalization". It means we open ourselves to other markets and the benefits therein - that's what investors and business-running executives see - it's business. Well there is also the personal side... the people, the lifestyles, the costs of living, environment, etc. This is what scares me most, because people justify the sh1+ out of the business case, and NEVER consider the personal case.

King Bush just signed a trade agreement with China last fall. It opens the door for "free trade" with expanding Chinese markets - like that's a good thing for us here in the States. Fact is, nobody in China can afford anything made in the USA. They are broke... poor beyond belief to the average US citizen. At $.29/hour, just how many $40k cars or $90 shoes do you think they can afford to buy? There is no way in hell they can afford our goods, and even if they could, they'd buy the same goods made (er, copied) there in China for less. On the other hand, we Americans **** away $2 on a pair of cheap pliers, use them twice, lose them, and go buy another pair without a thought. We throw away shoes that are nowhere near worn out. We throw out TVs and VCRs just because we got a newer or bigger one. As a nation, we have money to burn - we are wealthy. We can opt to buy "anything from anybody at any time" according to one poster in this thread, without concern about who made it or where it came from too. THAT is an option you have by the Grace of God and luck of your birthplace. It is NOT an option for a consumer in China, Mexico, Malaysia, Indonesia, Gana, Liberia, or Afghanistan.
So opening free trade benefits us here in the States how?!?!

You are correct - you have the right to spend your money on whatever you wish, whenever you wish. I can't take that away. But you should be concerned about the total effects of your spending, and you should excersize moral and responsible practices with your budget - and that often means thinking about someone other than yourself.
Think about what would have happened to you if your parents took that first concept above to the extreme during your childhood... You needed shoes for school, but mom and dad wanted to buy a new set of plates to go on the hutch. You needed school supplies, but they wanted to go to the movies instead. You needed braces and orthodontia, but Dad wanted to spend a week in Maui instead. After all, mom and dad earned the money, it was theirs to do with as they pleased, and they deserved nice things for working so hard - in short, they have great excuses to do what they want to. But they didn't... they thought about YOUR future, your health, your education, and your well-being, and they adjusted their budget, made sacrifices, and spent their money appropriately to support your development (hopefully ). You see my point, I'm sure.

Well, to be VERY blunt, every argument I hear about buying an import seems to have a common element that goes something like "I have the right...", "I can do..." "I don't need to...", "I got better value..." and so on - right here in this thread you can see it plainly.
Likewise, there seems to be a trend in the domestic support camp of throwing out common elements like "People's jobs are lost...", "people's health care", "people's retirements..." and so on. - right here in this thread you can see it plainly.

So to me, it boils down to who is really putting thought and responsible, consciencious effort into how they spend their money. There are those who see the big picture, try to look into the future, and want to help the economy of this nation (not this hemisphere, not this continent, and not the world, but this nation) to sustain itself if not grow. Then there are those who know how much money is in their pocket, what they can afford, and how bad they want it. They don't think or care about what goes on behind the sale, they just want what they want - period. Sometimes, after they purchase, they feel the need to defend their purchase, especially when presented with data they didn't consider. At that point, human nature comes out, because none of us really likes to admit we were wrong about anything - it's the way we all are.

Myself, I am the consciencious guy. I go out of my way to buy AMERICAN. I just ordered 2 leaf springs for my King Cobra resto from an outfit in Harrisburg, PA - AFTER calling them and confirming that they make the parts on-site, and from US steel. They cost me $102.40 each, and I could have gotten "springs" on the web for as little as $64/each... made in B*mf*ck. I have not been to WalMart in 4 weeks - I am intentionally trying to go buy from local merchants and independents since I saw the expose on WalMart last summer. I just spent $40 on a set of Craftsman wrenches, and established they were forged in a plant in Gastonia, NC before doing so (as opposed to buying a $10 set of China tools at the flea market). I ordered a set of Wagner wheel cylinders (for same Cobra) at $9.95/ea plus $5 S&H, waited 2 weeks to get them, then turned around and returned them because the castings and rubber boots both had "Taiwan" cast into them... my original Wagoner-Lockheed cylinders and boots had "Made in the USA" clearly visible, and I want my resto to be as good as possible. I bead-blasted the cylinders, coated them, honed them, and installed new internals from a rebuild kit for $2.49 .

I have hundreds of stories like this. I make my life a little harder, but I am trying to make my neighbor's and friend's lives a little better in the act. It is trying at times, but I am committed to taking a moral high road and supporting my LOCAL economy.

Lastly, going back to the personal side of globalization...
Globalization is geared to making low-cost markets open to manufacturers, but it also makes the lifestyle of those involved change radically. We have long been a wealthy nation because of our manufacturing might - plain and simple fact. As we lose that manufacturing might, we will also lose our national wealth, and our cost of living - also fact. I personally do NOT want to see the typical US citizen have a cost of living and lifestyle that is on-par with the typical Chinese citizen. I have been there, seen it, lived it, and it is NOT pretty.
Likewise, if you do not want to see your lifestyle and cost of living become standardized to the rest of the world, you better wake up and start acting accordingly, because if you embrace globalization based on economics alone, that is exactly what you will get in the end - fact.

As someone said earlier in this thread - WE (the US citizen) made ourselves "great" by working hard and following the laws of this Nation. We did it through agriculture, indusrty, and technology. We also did it ON OUR OWN. We didn't sneak our technology from Japan (the way they did our electronics). We did not sneak our manufaturing from Taiwan or China (the way they are doing from us).
The down side is - we can ruin it on our own too. When we forget what made us strong, and act like it doesn't matter, we are only fooling ourselves, and the time will come when we regret neglecting those points.

Take it FWIW.

 

Damn. That was an awesome post, Proud. Thanks for sharing your thoughts and experiences.

I think I may show it to a few people, if you are cool with it.

 

Didn't GM post a 112 million dollar profit in China, yet can't produce a profit here?? I guess their .40 cents an hour can afford cars ....

 

Go, dude.

 

If you knew how many people in industrialized parts of China were actually nationals from Europe, USA, Australia, and the like - you'd drop your jaw. My company has several hundred people in China right now developing plants and business. We have 3 local North Carolinians from my office that live in Shanghai on 1 to 3 year contracts. WalMart has a huge staff over there developing business relations and export channels. These people need tools to work with. That is a considerable portion of what commercial purchases are taking place.

Also, there are certainly some native people in China who have a few dollars and are spending them. And their economy is growing at alarming rates - people are making more money over there than ever before. But $.29 is much more than $.02, right? And for a nation of over 1-billion people, a whopping 650,000 GM cars were sold there. Doesn't sound like a mass-slaughter to me. Also, when you can pay people $.29/hr with NO BENEFITS to build your cars locally, it is not too hard to establish some profit in it.

These are exactly the reasons my company is building their 2nd plant on mainland China right now, and have plans for a third to start up in 2008.

I never said they didn't buy anything, but the average citizen there does not have anything close to the disposeable income we do here in the USA.
And don't pass over the fact that for every job they gain over there, there is one being lost somewhere else.

 

I copied into a Word document so I could hang onto it.

By the way, it just occurred to me, after reading your post again, that I didn't see your take on a foreign-owned product that is built here. Or did I miss it?

What you said about supporting the local economy certainly makes sense, but it can get a little blurry even when trying to be conscientious about it. If I want a motorcycle, must I buy a Harley or Buell? Or is a made in Marysville Gold Wing ok? What about a Civic? Now that they are here, I think the local economy of Marysville, OH is helped quite a bit by the success of the plants there.

Similarly, using your example of the part you returned because it was made in Taiwan. Was it an American company that had it built in Taiwan? If so, did they build the plant overseas because they just couldn't compete building it here, because not enough people would pay the higher price required (which goes back to your point about not enough people being conscious of this stuff)?

The Big Three (and imports as well) have plants in Mexico. On the one hand, that is labor not being done here. On the other hand, perhaps growing Mexico's economy would reduce the tidal wave of illegals sapping our system over here? And on and on...

It gets pretty muddy real quick, in some ways.

 

ProudPony,

That was one of the better posts I’ve ever read on this or any other forum regarding the issue.

As you can probably tell from my posts, I’m a conservative; especially financially.

That tends to mean, among other things, that I’m highly in favor of free trade, breaking down barriers, competition and letting the free enterprise system work.

I believe pursuing those things are good for the US in particular and the world in general. I believe it is free enterprise, privately owned land and privately owned businesses that have, more than any other factors (other than God’s blessings) responsible for making this country the greatest the world has ever known.

But, I’m not unmindful to the problems pursuing those goals can mean to individual industries, individual companies within an industry segment or to the individual people affected; particularly when we are in the midst of significant changes.

Nevertheless, I have to stay true to my general principles or I might as well not have any.

Do I buy American (as in USA produced products that use USA raw materials and labor) whenever possible and do I think that’s good for the US economy overall…Yes and I don’t usually care much about the price in that decision.

I haven’t been in a Wal-Mart in years and have no intention of going back for a lot of reasons but mostly because I just don’t like them or how they run their company and the fact that they sell so much China produced product.

Do I think China engages in unfair business practices; uses slave/near slave labor/steals our patents and ideas and makes cheep knock-offs….Yes.

Do I think we should be doing business with China and, in effect, reward their criminal/immoral behavior…No.

Then again , what SHOULD the US do with respect to China - pretend the largest people group on the planet doesn’t exist and try to shun them/block them out of the marketplace or try to work for change? Thankfully, I’m not President Bush nor do I ever intend to be in that position so that I don’t have to make that decision but my principles tell me that working for change and pursuing trade and relations is the better path.

Where does all that leave me?

Well…I will continue to try to buy American product when I can and when it makes sense. I also will continue to reject and argue against opinions and viewpoints that, although perhaps well- intentioned, I consider to be misguided or based on false perceptions or misinformation. I will continue to try to be true to my principles but not unmindful of the pain that pursuing those principles can cause.

I do wish you well, Proud as I do all here whether you/they agree with me or not.

 

Oh listen, I can't even come close to saying that I don't have a thing in my possession that is not made in the USA.
When I was 6, I got a used Honda Z-50 minibike, moved up to a 100, then ended up on a TL-125 trials bike. Honda had the only 50cc starter back then, and their trials bike was in a class of it's own. In our machine shop, we own lots of gages and measuring equipment that is Swiss made. We have some Mitutoyo equipment too. When I am beating around on old cars, I wear a $19 Casio watch (so I don't scratch up my nice Mustang-logo'ed Chronograph!). So I am not saying I am sterile to imports - not at all.

Yes, it was Wagner Brake Products, a division of Federal-Mogul.
Here's a link.
I'm sure they moved operations offshore to get more competitive, but there is a difference in the quality of the parts made 28 years ago and the ones made 2 months ago too. I can post some images of the two side-by-side if you like.
Moreover for me, it bothers me to replace USA-made parts with imported ones, especially on a restoration that is supposed to make the car something of a "time machine". In the end, they still got $5 off me, but not $25.

Plainly, if there is no American version or offering for what you seek, you buy what you can get from whomever offers it. The HD/Buell thing is a good example. If they don't offer the bike you want, get a Honda. Better yet, let HD know that you didn't find what you were after when you shopped their offerings, so they can be aware that demand exists for new products. You should be guilt-free for an experience such as that.

But in instances where there are multiple choices that are readily available, we Americans should really reserve the first lick for local suppliers and manufacturers and only resort to imported goods when nothing else can be found to fit the bill. At least that's my opinion. It has to be handled on a case-by-case basis, and you, as the buyer, are the one responsible for making the best all-around decision based on everything you know.
THAT'S what makes this issue so tough to debate... it gets subjective based on personal situations, and that's also why it gets so "muddy" as you said!

 

I have said the above statement to my Honda and Mazda driving co-workers a zillion times. I will be emailing them the link to your very thread. Thank you, sir!

 

Another good post! (Robert's).

This place is great.

EDIT: Thanks for the reply, Proud. I didn't see it until after I posted this.

 

Read every word (as I usually do), and I reciprocate that there are some sound reasons behind your position as well.

I certainly agree that we should be investing in a growing economy like China - we'd be fools not to. However, I think in my "perfect world", we would be making more parts here and shipping them there to sell than we are now. We would certainly be getting equal tarriffs and trade regulations on goods, we would have anti-dumping regulations that went both ways, and we would not allow a $3-billion trade deficit to continue to grow. We would also force China to comply with the same economic and ergonomic regulations that we do here in the USA. (If we deemed the laws necessary for safety of people and environment here, then they should be safe for the people and environment there too.)

Also in my perfect world, US corporations would be investing in new plants in China for them to make their own goods locally - much like Import companies are building plants here to make cars for the US market. Problem is, US companies are investing in plants in China to make goods and bring them back here to the US to sell. Wrong way!
A company like Frito/Lays making a plant in Beijing to make potato chips for Chinese consumption is perfect. Closing a plant in Dallas and shipping potato chips to Dallas from Beijing is wrong IMO.

I digress. You said earlier that we probably agree on more things than we realize, and our total POV is probably not too far apart, but until someone actually goes and lives in the other nations for a period of time, befriends the local people, and understands what quality of life they hold dear - there is NO WAY you can truely understand the peril of having our standard of living reduced by that much here in the USA. Honestly, I didn't know dookie about worl affairs and economic things when I was 16 and I didn't care either, but I have been moved THAT much in the last 20 years based on my travels, and I have never felt more proud (and lucky) to be an American, nor have I ever felt so afraid of our nation backsliding from our economic might and stability either.

And YES - it is better to stand for something that to waver aimlessly in life. I admire ANY person who can lay claim to a cause and defend it in a mature fshion - regardless of the issue.

 

Well I'm glad to see everybody getting along and at least we digressed from the dangerous precipice of name calling.

I think everybody's on board with the idea that we should be playing much harder hardball with China over trade restriction imbalances. IMO they need our money much much more than we need their cheap goods. Yes it would hurt our standard of living some, but it would devastate China. Only way to play the game with the Commies is to play to win.

But what does any of this have to do with Import automobiles other than the fact there's a Chinese company about to drop their dumpy little cars here?

 

That's true if you see the economy (ours or the world’s) as a zero-sum game. But generally speaking, economies expand…we produce more, consume more, serve growing populations, etc.

All I’m saying is that a job gained over there doesn’t automatically mean that a job had to have been lost somewhere else or that there won’t be a totally new job created to replace the one that was lost.

 

The one thing you touched on, which I agree with 100%, is the contributions to the country, made by the American brands, and the Americans who worked for them! Robert has a point too that those companies couldn't be around without such a great free country, however its a 2 way street. Without the contributions of these great companies, and the ppl who worked for them, we would never have defeated our enemies, and we might damn well be speaking another language right now! And from what I understand Canadians buy more American made cars than we do, so I'll proudly cruise around in my 4th gen. This is a very tiring discussion, my eyes feel like they are about to bleed, and I didn't even get through the whole thread yet. Just read prouds post, awesome as usual.

 

Here's just one single small example from the direct cause of the Detroit fall out. I fail to see the silver lining for Americans in this.....

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll...601260381/1148