This topic works itself into a lot of threads so I'd like to see it discussed.

One of the primary arguments for buying from Ford and GM is that the head office, and profits (if any) stay in the U.S. instead of going overseas. From a Canadian perspective, none of the profits stay here, so it would make sense to buy vehicles that are assembled here.

That having been said, I'm a GM guy and am buying my wife a California built Vibe instead of a Canadian built Matrix. I simply can't fathom the thought of a Toyota badge in our fleet.

My opinion is that what is good for the USA is good for Canada and vice-versa, at least in the auto industry. Does this make sense, or am I a fool that should put on his "Canada first" hat?

 

I think from what I understand of it, 'domestic content' is defined as being made in North America which includes Canada, the US, and Mexico. So at least our government seems to think it no different in some respects, as do some people around here who'd rather send the 500 dollars of profit back to the manufacturer even if it means sending half of their parts cost and assembly cost (the majority of the vehicle price paid) to some other country.

 

Scott (Red Planet / Fbodfather) has posted numbers relevant to this topic before...

 

I’ve engaged this topic in one way or another at length (although it’s been quite a while ago since I last posted).

The arguments about “foreign”/“domestic” vehicles are pretty tiresome and for the most part, based largely on emotion and feelings. Posters often argue about where the “profits” go or where the company headquarters are located while having no real concept of what that actually means or even if what they think they know of such matters is true/accurate. They strain and contort themselves to find some rational way to justify saying “GM” is “American” and “Toyota” is not and will often ignore any facts that prove inconvenient for their particular viewpoint.

The fact is not that the world is changing - the fact is that the world has already changed; quite a while ago in fact.

Most companies today (of any significant size) are multi-national and use goods/services/raw materials/labor from dozens and dozens of different countries and have “headquarters” in multiple locations. What may have been an “American” company 60 years ago is very likely NOT the same company today.

We can all argue about what “buying American” means all day long and come up with all sorts of emotional rationalizations to justify a particular opinion but that won’t change the simple truth that “buying American” today is NOT the same thing as “buying American” 40 years ago and I seriously doubt that it ever will be again.

 

Go drink milk out of a bag and watch some hockey. "Buy American" is for the U.S.A only!

 

Hey Hey Hey ...easy there ... us Manitobans don't drink milk from a bag ..... and since "our" Winnipeg Jets are now "your" Phoenix Coyotes .... you watch that pathetic bunch play hockey.

 

 

Could you hang out here more often so it doesn't always have to be me acting as the voice of reason?

 

Yep. Domestic counts Canada. Just like my Canadian Firebird. Got to love my brother's up north.

 

You know what's funny?

The two people that constantly type like this are the owners of multiple imported cars. Hmmm.....

Rob_Nash, we've been through this before, and while I'll agree that the times have changed, to even insinuate that buying an import is even close to as adventageous for our country as buying a domestic branded make is simply incorrect, shortsighted, and misinformed.

Look at the facts and the big picture. Even forget about the profit arguement. Think about who's paying the taxes in this country for starters. Why are import makers building factories over here? Do you know why? Do a little research and you'll find it isn't to please the American people.

There are people who will argue that GM got themselves in their situation by not building this and by not doing that etc. But face it import buying, GM criticizing, "Global-Economists", GM builds a model of quality for every major market segment in the US auto industry. If you choose to believe different, you are only fooling yourself.

 

Yep, it's called rationalization.

As in, telling yourself you made the right decision. Over and over. Even though, if you made the right decision, you wouldn't be so conscious of it.

We all do it.

But we've been through that before, too.

 

As I said, this issue always breaks down rather quickly into emotional arguments and personal attacks and one has to go no further than your opening line.

Insinuating that the opinion of anyone who owns an “imported" car should be automatically discounted; as if what vehicles a person owns or doesn't own has anything to do with the value or accuracy of their argument, is much easier than making a legitimate, well researched, factually based counter-argument.



I don’t have to insinuate that buying an import is even as close to as advantageous for our country as buying a "domestic”…it IS as advantageous for our country by any objective standard you wish to apply. If you want to put forward a specific example with objective facts to back it up to support your opinion I'll be happy to respond in kind.



Who is paying the taxes in this country? Well, companies that do business here and people who make and spend money here pay the taxes...what’s your point? What taxes do you think aren’t being paid and/or who isn’t paying???

That aside, you are absolutely right that Nissan, Toyota, Honda, Mercedes Benz, et al, build production plants here not to please the “American people” – they build here because it’s good for Nissan, Toyota, Honda and Mercedes Benz which is precisely the SAME reason why GM, Ford, and every other company (auto-industry related or not) does anything…because it’s good for THAT company.



No one is saying GM isn’t building some good vehicles and I’ve owned a lot of them…so what??? What does that have to do with this thread? And as to GM’s problems, I don’t see what that has to do with this thread either?

However, since you brought it up, whatever problems GM, Ford or any other company has ("American" or otherwise) rests with the management of those companies. Period. That maybe uncomfortable to hear but it’s the truth nevertheless.

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What is usually at the heart of most “buy American” pundits can be traced back, directly or indirectly, to the UAW.

The UAW is beside itself over their lack of control of the domestically located “foreign” manufacturing plants. However, the UAW leadership is smart enough to know that most people today, aside from rank and file union members that is, are not going to respond well to “buy GM (or Ford, etc) because it’s UAW made and don’t buy a Toyota because it isn’t” UAW made argument. So…they couch their real opinion with references to “patriotism” or “where profits go” or “what’s good for America”, etc. etc which tends to resonate with more people even if those people have no earthly idea whether it’s a valid argument or not. After all, who wants to be "unpatriotic" or not do "what's good for America"!

I highly suspect that if the UAW successfully organized Nissan and Toyota, and the other domestic/foreign auto plants this whole “buy American” argument would be rendered silent other than for a few fringe elements.

 

Do you feel I discounted your opinion? You sure went through alot of trouble quoting me. I guess you do. Fair enough.

The way I see it, you are just rationalizing you purchase decision by coming up with bogus beliefs that foreign car purchases (whether produced in the USA or not) are just as beneficial to our economy as a domestic car. They're not, and until you can prove what you "think" is true, save your blather for the Nissan web page. I have hundreds of pages of information that I've collected through the recent years that disproves your theory. I don't have the time or the care to please you. Do you have any reason or proof, other than justifying your purchase, to believe or prove what you claim as fact and not justified fiction? You are the one who brought it up first.

You won't hear me say that that buying an American assembled Camry isn't somewhat beneficial to the country, but to what cost of current US based company's jobs, let alone the debate over the benefit from American assembled import labels versus American assembled domestics. You have no case.

Are you saying it's as adventageous, because if you are, you need to study up in a book of common sence, NOW!

As I mentioned in my first post, I don't mask that it isn't beneficial, just not to the level of a real domestic. Do you not agree?

When the government gives incredible tax breaks to attract import manufactures, who pays more in taxes? GM who isn't getting the breaks, or the import manufacture who have the huge breaks?

Most people blame GM's problems on not enough quality and products. They are invalid points that need to be shut down immediately.

That and the mindset of the American buying public. Remember, it was companies like GM and Ford that have made this country what it is. Having people receive far better than average wages and thus nicer living conditions and environment because of them, whether or not the companies wanted to or not thanks to early unions. Now lets just say "to hell with GM and their stupid ways?" Are we in China? Last time I checked we weren't.

It's a little hard to get out of union contracts when you need to. And seeing as how the union is being difficult, what do you propose GM and Ford do?

 

But I would like to thank Quebec for the Nordiques, as the Avalanche they have brought us two Stanley Cup hoistings!

 

You said “The two people that constantly type like this are the owners of multiple imported cars. Hmmm.....”

Did I misunderstand your intent? If that comment was not intended to preemptively disparage the opinions of anyone who owns an ‘imported car” as you put it, then please enlighten myself and the rest of us as to your real meaning.



I’ve no doubt you “see’ it that way. However, until such time as you (or GM) start paying my bills, I have no need or obligation to justify my purchasing decisions to you or anyone else. I buy what I want, when I want from whom I want based on what I want/need/can afford and what "nameplate" is on the vehicle is, at best, a minor consideration and I don't have to justify anything because I get up every morning, leave the cave and go out and kill something and drag it home.

As to the “how beneficial” to the United States a “domestic” car purchase is compared to a ”foreign” car purchase – that’s a read hearing issue at best.

Other than the nameplate stamped on the front end, the difference between a domestically produced Chevrolet and a domestically produced Toyota is so small as to be virtually un-measurable…whether in terms of raw materials, finished parts, labor, taxes or any other component; the difference is microscopic in terms of economic benefit to the United States. It’s very true that the purchase of an imported car is less “beneficial” to the United States than a domestically produced vehicle all other things being equal. However, to stop there is to ignore the more significant benefit to the economy of the US represented by the fact that a car was purchased at all. The fact that a car was purchased is far more beneficial to the economy overall than whether it's a domestic or foreign nameplate...money changed hands in the US…taxes were paid in the US…license fees are paid in the US…repair shops and those the employee make money in the US…I could go on but I think the point is clear. The point being that what is good for US is a lot more broad and complicated than whether I buy a Honda or a Chevy.

It's said when anyone looses a job but it's shortsighed to blame Nissan or Toyota or Honda for a lost job at GM or Ford. The process is called competition...it's called capitalism...it's called free enterprise and it's what our economy is based on...it's what has made our economy the envy of the world. If a comapny competes and doesn't fare well; blaming the competition becasue it competed will only deny the real problems and hasten the demise of the one who didn't fare well.


That statement will have some legs if you can show even one documentable instance where a Toyota or Honda or Subaru or any other “foreign” nameplate was offered tax breaks by a local/state government to entice them to build a facility in that community that was not/would not have been offered to GM or Ford were they looking to move or expand.

I don’t happen to like the practice of taxing authorities offering tax breaks to compete with other taxing authorities to attract business (or sports teams or anything else for that matter) but the practice has absolutely nothing to do with whether the business being enticed is a GM or a Honda.



Anyone who reduces GM’s problems to only quality and/or products” are extremely oversimplifying - GM (and Ford) has/has had a lot of problems and those problems have been in the making for decades. However, saying that GM hasn’t had quality problems and/or not had the right product at the right time is to deny the truth. I’m not saying GM hasn’t made some remarkable progress but let’s not pretend that they haven’t made some truly forgettable/poor quality cars over their lifetime.



Oh my God…that’s such a drastically ***-backwards statement it almost hurts to read it.

Companies like GM and Ford have NOT made this country great…GM and Ford became great companies because this is a great country with great people who worked hard and built a society the likes of which the world has never known before and likely never will know again.


No one, at least not I is saying “to hell” with GM. However, GM, like any other company will and should survive only if it can provide the products its customers want, when they want them at a price they can afford to pay….they don’t deserve to survive, and certainly not prosper simply because they are “GM”.

I think GM and Ford can make it…whether they will or not…I don’t know. What I do know is that the “buy American” mantra is not the answer to GM’s or Fords’ problems.

And if I had the answer to what GM should do about its union contracts I’d be knocking on their door and expecting a seven-figure income in return for the answer. However, that GM and the UAW got themselves into the mess the're in and they are going to have to figure something out if either is going to survive.

Now…I’m going to go fix my dinner and then wash and wax my 350Z!